Which type of Starfire???

[SFIV1967]

The serial number on the paper sticker inside the F-Hole is consistent with being built in 1965 as per the Guild Serial Number guide.

Ji J., welcome to LTG. Send me a PM with the S/N and I try to find out. I doubt it is 1965, there were no 18th fret neck to body joint guitars in 1965 at all according to my knowledge.
Ralf

 

[Los Angeles]

EDIT - sorry, misread the post, so no need for mine ...

 

[hansmoust]

I bought the Guild Starfire and want to know a little more about its journey. I'll clear up (or try to) some of the points that you have already raised.

The serial number on the paper sticker inside the F-Hole is consistent with being built in 1965 as per the Guild Serial Number guide. After having a look at some pics on your forum of this paper sticker it appears that the handwriting on it is a consistent style of other Starfires of the same age.

Hello pure_retro,

Welcome! Well, if you read the label correctly then the only possibility there is, is that a mistake was made while copying the serial number from the back of the headstock to the label, which was the order in which things took place at Guild. I've seen mistakes like that before. However in those cases there still was a number on the back of the headstock, so you could actually see that a mistake was made. In your case there's no original stamped serial number any longer, so we have to go by the specs. and features.

I do not know how familiar you are with typical Guild features but here are the reasons why your guitar cannot be from 1965:

1) The change from 16th fret at the body joint to 18th fret at the body joint took place during the second half of 1966.
The last 16th fret-neck joints were around ser. # EN-600. Higher numbers have the 18th fret at the neck to body joint.
Your guitar has the neck to body joint at the 18th fret.

2) The volute on the back of the peghead was introduced during 1965 and discontinued during 1969.
Last documented (in my files) Starfire Vs with a volute were around ser. # EN-2100. Your guitar does not have a volute.

3) Guild had problems with shrinking peghead overlays during the second half of the '60s. This photo shows what happened to these overlays:

During 1969 a new material for the overlays was found and consequently all guitars that were made after that, didn't have the shrinking problem. Your guitar already has the new material and therefore must have been completed during or after 1969.

The best explanation for the 3-digit serial number is that there was a 4-digit serial number on the back of the peghead originally. One of the digits may have been stamped on the centerstrip of the neck lamination and because of the difference in hardness between the wood species, that particular digit could have been stamped a little less deep than the other ones. With the black finish being somewhat thicker than the usual transparent finishes, the serial number may have not been all that clear to the person who copied the number onto the label. Again I've seen cases like that before!

The photo of this Starfire V shows ser. # EN-1323. Note that the 1 on the centerstrip is not so well visible. I believe that's how your guitar ended up with the serial number that's on the label and which makes it appear that the guitar was made during 1965.

I've order Hans' book but have yet to receive it so I'm sure there's info in there that will cover many of my questions.

Some of the things I just pointed out may not be all that clear right away but if you have the book on order I'm sure it will be a lot easier to understand once you've become familiar with most of the specifications.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[Kslam]

Hans, once again I'm blown away by the breadth of your expertise on all things Guild.

Is it your opinion that the DeArmond was installed after the guitar left the factory or is it possible that the guitar was special ordered with this unusual pickup combination and that the DeArmond is original?

 

[pure_retro]

Hello Hans,

Thanks for your help. Are there any distinguishing features on the body (other than a potentially unreliable serial number) that would identify the year? I was thinking if for some reason the previous owner had to change the neck... That would explain the differences that you mention and possibly why they scrubbed out the "other" serial number? However, I can't see any evidence of a change of neck looking at the paint, to my untrained eyes!

Thanks,

J.

 

[hansmoust]

Are there any distinguishing features on the body (other than a potentially unreliable serial number) that would identify the year? I was thinking if for some reason the previous owner had to change the neck...

Hello again J.

No, that's a scenario that wouldn't work! A 1965 body would have the pickups and the bridge in a different spot. Consequently with a change of neck, the location of the pickups and bridge would have to be changed as well.

Can you make a close-up shot of the label?

Something like this:

Is it your opinion that the DeArmond was installed after the guitar left the factory or is it possible that the guitar was special ordered with this unusual pickup combination and that the DeArmond is original?

With a good photo of the label I might be able to figure that out! Even when the writing has faded I'm usually able to figure out what was written there. I'm used to looking at this stuff and I know what the procedure was for writing up the labels.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[badlydrawnbanjo]

Strangely, the guy who sold this guitar lives about 5 miles away from me. He's very well respected and has brokered some very expensive guitars over the years. He's worked as a guitar tech for some great bands and is currently working with the legend that is Johnny Marr.

 

[hansmoust]

Strangely, the guy who sold this guitar lives about 5 miles away from me. He's very well respected and has brokered some very expensive guitars over the years.

Hello badlydrawnbanjo,

Welcome! No reason to think that the seller doesn't know his stuff. Even the really high-end guitar dealers do not know everything about all the small details that are specific to a brand. There's only so much that you can really study, so most dealers know the stuff that they need on a day-to-day basis. If they have a problem and they can't find it in the available literature, they know where to go to get the answer. There are people all over the world that know all there is to know about a specific brand/model/period and most of the reputable dealers are in touch with these people.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[hansmoust]

OK, this is exciting! My conclusions were wrong!

This is a wonderful example that demonstrates how you need to look at all the available evidence to come to the right conclusion. Working from photos and guessing what may have happened (because it seems logical) will not always give you the right answer.

I will get back with the complete story later today!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[SFIV1967]

Now this sounds really interesting now!
Ralf

 

[CoralStarfire]

I'm still curiously reading these last posts too.. while reading the just received Guild Book, really a beautiful book (!) with lots of detailed information in it!

 

[Muovinen]

I'm still curiously reading these last posts too.. while reading the just received Guild Book, really a beautiful book (!) with lots of detailed information in it!

I'm curious too and still waiting for my copy of the book to arrive. Once I ordered the book it was confirmed - I've gone Guild-crazy!

 

[Los Angeles]

I'm still curiously reading these last posts too.. while reading the just received Guild Book, really a beautiful book (!) with lots of detailed information in it!

I'm curious too and still waiting for my copy of the book to arrive. Once I ordered the book it was confirmed - I've gone Guild-crazy!

That hard-to-find HB1 equipped S-300 is one sure way to kick start a new obsession.

Can't wait to hear the story about the black starfire, too!

 

[jcwu]

OK, this is exciting! My conclusions were wrong!

This is a wonderful example that demonstrates how you need to look at all the available evidence to come to the right conclusion. Working from photos and guessing what may have happened (because it seems logical) will not always give you the right answer.

I will get back with the complete story later today!

I'm hooked!

 

[CoralStarfire]

I'm still curiously reading these last posts too.. while reading the just received Guild Book, really a beautiful book (!) with lots of detailed information in it!

I'm curious too and still waiting for my copy of the book to arrive. Once I ordered the book it was confirmed - I've gone Guild-crazy!

That hard-to-find HB1 equipped S-300 is one sure way to kick start a new obsession.

Can't wait to hear the story about the black starfire, too!

Me too, haha! However, a Starfire seems to me like another great way to kick it off! Preferably a -very- hard-to-find one, of course! haha.

 

[hansmoust]

Sorry guys! I'm waiting for the current owner to get back with me. I don't want to give out the specifics without his permission!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[adorshki]

I don't want to give out the specifics without his permission!
Sincerely,
Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

You're a true gentleman. Thanks for the update, and everything else you do here as well.

 

[SFIV1967]

I just hope he comes back quickly to Hans. That might be such an interesting story.
Ralf

 

[pure_retro]

Hello All, sorry for the delay... Hans has really helped undo the knots in this story! Unfortunately I don't have the know how to attach the pics via an iPhone so Hans has said that he will post an update soon.

 

[hansmoust]

OK, this is exciting! My conclusions were wrong!

This is a wonderful example that demonstrates how you need to look at all the available evidence to come to the right conclusion. Working from photos and guessing what may have happened (because it seems logical) will not always give you the right answer.

OK, here we go:

You need to remember that I was looking at the photos and description from the eBay auction plus the posting from the buyer who confirmed that the guitar had a 1965 serial number, which is also what was stated in the letter that came from Guild. The Guild statement was based on the serial number that had been provided by the owner at the time.

By looking at the photos from the eBay auction, I concluded that the guitar could not be from 1965 because:
1) The guitar had the neck to body joint at the 18th fret, so it had to be made during the second half of 1966 or later.
2) The neck did not have a volute, which would date it to 1969 or later.
3) The same for the headstock overlay, which did not show the severe shrinking that you would usually see on instruments from the 1968-1969 period. So it had to be made during or after 1969.

Since we were still trying to figure out what the deal was with the DeArmond pickup in the bridge position, I asked pure_retro, the new owner, for a clear photo of the label, so I could see what the complete model designation was. If the DeArmond was original equipment, the guitar should have the 'Special' designation on the label.

This is what I received:

There was a lot of black stuff on the label, which made it difficult to clearly read all that was written on there, but at first glance the serial number looked like # EN-143, which according to the Guild serial number lists would make it a Starfire V from 1965. But when I ‘enhanced’ the photo in Photoshop, to take a closer look at what was written after the ‘Starfire V’ model designation, I noticed that the serial number turned out to be # EN-743 instead of # EN-143. A further look also revealed that not only the serial number turned out to be different, but the color suffix after the model designation was not Black or Blk. , which was the usual practice on a black finished guitar, but Ch, which was the color suffix for a Cherry finished guitar.

Here’s the part of the label that clearly shows the serial number and the Ch. suffix after the Roman V:

For those who are not used to looking at Guild labels here's a clear view on what the Ch. suffix usually would look like. Also note the difference in how the worker would write a 1 and a 7:

So now we’re looking at a refinished Starfire V from the second half of 1966, which fits in with the 18th fret at the neck to body joint. Being from 1966 also takes care of the 'shrinking headstock overlay' issue, because that was not a problem yet on guitars from that period.

Now we know that the black finish was not original, it also explains the following:

A) All the black spots on the label.

B) I had also noticed that there were no brass indicator nails next to the volume- and tone knobs. These must have been removed before the refinish and apparently they were not put back after the job was done.

The only thing that doesn't make sense now is the absence of the 'volute', which should be there on an instrument from 1966, but here's what may have happened:
There is a possibility that the guitar had a broken headstock and while doing the repair they may have removed the volute in the sanding process; that also could have been part of the reasons for the complete refinish.

I'm not 100% sure of the broken headstock, but I would be able to check it if I had the guitar in my hands.

This is pretty much what I think right now. I don't think I have to change my mind once again, but I will let you know when I do. I have no doubts about the dating and I'm pretty sure that the DeArmond pickup was added later.

Oh yes, and here's a partial (not so clear) photo of the label of Starfire V with ser. # EN-744, which was the next in line from that particular Cherry-finished batch:

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl