Who knows about tubes...

JonL

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Hi, thanks for the welcome!

I do agree that the speakers won't change the essential characteristics of the amp -- they won't make a Twin Reverb into and AC/30, but in my experience they can have a tremendous influence on the frequency response. Speakers can really alter the whole bright-vs-dark balance as well as influence the nature of the overdrive when played loud. Even in hi-fi systems, changing speakers makes the biggest difference in the sound, and all hi-fi speakers are designed to be "linear" and "natural" sounding. Musical instrument speakers are designed to color the sound, and so is the type of enclosure. So I think there is a lot of very effective "voicing" than can be done by trying different speakers.
 

capnjuan

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JonL said:
I do agree that the speakers won't change the essential characteristics of the amp -- they won't make a Twin Reverb into and AC/30, but in my experience they can have a tremendous influence on the frequency response. Speakers can really alter the whole bright-vs-dark balance as well as influence the nature of the overdrive when played loud. Even in hi-fi systems, changing speakers makes the biggest difference in the sound, and all hi-fi speakers are designed to be "linear" and "natural" sounding. Musical instrument speakers are designed to color the sound, and so is the type of enclosure. So I think there is a lot of very effective "voicing" than can be done by trying different speakers.
Hi Jon, not arguing the point. The question is whether our man Qvart has a better shot at rolling out some 'shrill' by sticking $20 in a 12AT7 or $200 in a pair of new speakers ... and then maybe sticking the $20 in the 12AT7 anyway. If he goes with a 12AT7 and finds it doesn't work and goes with a new pair of speakers, he's out $20. If he goes with the new speakers and then spends the $20 for the tube and it solves the problem, arguably, he's out $200. Assuming money weren't an issue, my suggestion would be to go find an amp he likes and sell off the Marshall ... or he could just obsess over it. :wink: Cheers. John
 

JonL

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Well, if it were me, I'm sure I'd obsess over it! :D

I totally agree that the first thing to try is different tubes.

Jon
 

capnjuan

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JonL said:
Well, if it were me, I'm sure I'd obsess over it! :D
Well ... I obsess over my stuff ... and it's nice now and then to obsess over the other guy's stuff ... :wink: J
 

Qvart

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Wow, glad to see this thread is still generating interest. My knowledge in this area is quite rudimentary (as John will tell you!) and every little bit helps. It's taking awhile to sink in because I've been distracted by work, which is taking up far too much of my time lately.

So here's where I'm at:

1) I will try a different preamp tube in the Marshall. I may also go ahead and replace all of the tubes including the outputs because I'm having some issues with the sound cutting out when it's nice and hot. Of course there are other things that could cause this so I'm going to have the guy at my local shop put it through it's paces and give me his opinion. (BTW John: before your recommendation he suggested a 12AU7).

2) Speakers: When I began this thread I didn't talk about them until Walter raised the issue. I do know the limitations of the cab I have - a Peavey 412M from 1988. It has two Celestion GK12-85's and somebody replaced the other two with some kind of Peavey speakers. I think the sound is always going to be a bit shrill out of these.

130U-7815_front_sm_.jpg


3) The Marshall worked better with a Fender 4x12 my bandmate had back in the day (I have no idea what the speakers were). But then again we were going for a much higher treble sound for the punk we played. The Marshall worked great for that but I would like a more mellow tone now - that will take experimenting and testing I know. If I didn't want some flexibility in the sounds from my future gear I'd go straight for a soul-shaking bass rig.

4) If I find some time this weekend I'm going to check out some gear for sale in my area: an Orange AD30HTC head and a Mesa Boogie 4x12 (with Celestion Vintage 30's). Both of those are terra incognita so I'll just need to test them.

Orange%20AD30HTC.jpg


MESA+BOOGIE+4x12+RECTO+STD+280W.jpg


capnjuan said:
Assuming money weren't an issue, my suggestion would be to go find an amp he likes and sell off the Marshall ... or he could just obsess over it. :wink: Cheers. John

Well, I could spend the money without bankrupting myself, but that's a chunk of change to shell out all at once. I'd feel much better if I sold something to offset the costs, so the Marshall may very well find itself on the chopping block in the near future. The cab probably will too.

Okay, that's it for now. Thanks again everyone!
-Geoff.
 

JonL

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The Celestion Vintage 30s have a very good reputation. I don't think I ever played through them.
 

capnjuan

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Hi Q: you asked about whether your amp requires a matched quad of EL34s as opposed to two matched pairs and the answer is, based on the schematic and how your amp is biased, it looks like a matched quad. :( Brief lecture with slides: the preamp and power tubes only work because the DC voltage on the grid - the pin where the musical signal goes in the tube - is lower than the voltage on the cathode. This grid-to-cathode voltage relationship governs the idle setting on the tube ... vaguely similar to the idle setting on a car; when you apply power, it takes longer for a car with a lower idle setting to achieve speed than a car where the idle is already set higher because it takes less time for the engine to ramp up its RPM.

There are three ways to cause the necessary grid-to-cathode voltage relationship; use a belt, suspenders, or a belt and suspenders.

Belt: cathode-bias The schematic of a Gibson GA20T; a cathode-biased amp from the Neolithic era. In this slide, green represents the cathode and magenta is the bias. In the GA20T, a resistor is inserted between the cathode and ground (commonly bypassed by an electrolytic cap as the GA20T is). The presence of that resistor forces a DC voltage on the cathode guaranteeing that, since there is no DC voltage on the grid, that the DC voltage on the grid will always be lower - or more negative - than the DC voltage on the cathode. A cathode-biased amp must have matched tubes.
GA20TRanger.jpg



Suspenders: fixed-bias traditional cathode-bias like the GA20T provides the much-appreciated 'Class A' tone: it isn't a Class A amp but it mimics one in many respects but cathode-bias reduces total power out and by definition, isn't as efficient ... so ... another way to guarantee that the grid voltage is lower than the cathode voltage is to remove the cathode resistor and inject a negative DC voltage on the grid; grid voltage always lower than cathode. Below is the Fender Super Reverb AB763 schematic showing a negative source voltage in magenta from the power supply (lower right) passing through a potentiometer in the dotted circle, continuing to the dotted blue circle which includes the design bias voltage of -52(?) volts DC. There is no resistor between the cathodes and ground (green) so the cathode (at 0 volts DC) is higher than the negative voltage on the grid. An amp with a single bias control pot requires a pair of matched tubes.
FenderSRAB763.jpg



Belt and Suspenders, fixed-bias, Guild-style In its good-selling Thunderbass series, Guild used a negative voltage (in blue) and injected it on the grids. Grid now negative in relation to cathode ... and to further assure that relationship, Guild put a 6.8 ohm resistor between the cathode and ground. In this pic, the red indicates twin bias control pots with a test port (in green) accessible from the back chassis panel. Because the bias voltage on the tubes is independently adjustable, this amp can use mismatched tubes.
GuildThunder.jpg



Belt and Suspenders, fixed-bias, Marshall-style In your amp, the source negative bias voltage is shown in magenta, the target bias voltage (-38 to -48 vdc) in the blue dotted circle, the cathodes in green, and the cathode resistors in darker green and dotted circle. Once again, the grid is forced negative by the -DC voltage and a positive voltage induced on the cathode by the cathode resistors but, unlike both the Fender with its single bias control and the Guild's twin bias controls, this amp has no intervening control with which to adjust grid voltage.
Marshall.jpg



Although the text on the schematic indicates "Set bias at this point ..." - meaning the two blue circles that are the test points -, there is no means by which to set, adjust, or manipulate the bias voltage. What they mean is test it and, if it isn't what it's supposed to be, you test all the resistors in the supply string; R29/15K, R26 and R27/150K, and R25 and R26/1.5K to see if one or more has drifted out of tolerance. The bias supply is engineered to provide the correct voltage but only if all the parts that contribute to the finished voltage are within tolerance.

Before you sink larger money into a matched quad, you might consider both having your tech look at the bias; if it's cold, it will contribute to the shrill thing and you might also want to look into a 12AT7 to knock back some of the preamp gain. Good luck! John
 

teleharmonium

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JonL said:
The Celestion Vintage 30s have a very good reputation. I don't think I ever played through them.

They are very popular amongst metal/hard rock players for use in closed back cabinets due to the tight low end they have. However they have always been controversial among other players. Many including myself feel that they have a bad sounding, very spikey high end response. Also Celestion has used at least a couple of different cones on them over the years, so if you're used to one version, you may or may not get what you want when you buy more of them.

Another thing that I see as a negative is that while they have '30' in the name, they are actually rated at 65 watts apiece. Most people (logically) assume they are 30 watt speakers, so they end up putting higher powered speakers in their cabinets than what the amp really calls for, which means you won't likely ever blow them, but you're also not getting as much of that lively cone coloration/distortion, which is after all the signature Celestion sound, compared to what you would get from the 25 or 30 watt greenbacks.
 

Qvart

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teleharmonium said:
JonL said:
The Celestion Vintage 30s have a very good reputation. I don't think I ever played through them.

They are very popular amongst metal/hard rock players for use in closed back cabinets due to the tight low end they have.

Thanks for the info on these speakers. In the end I would just have to try them out and see what I think.

And thanks to John too - again! - for all the great technical info and advice.

In the end, I have too many things going on right now to shop for new heads and speakers, so I'm going to take the Marshall in to the shop and let the guy there have a go at it. They have a set of JJ EL34's for $77 and the bench fee is $40. That will cover checking it out, replacing the output tubes, and bias. I figure it's worth it given my extreme lack of free time at the moment. From there I'll tinker with it on my own - replacing the preamp 12AX7, for example.

But that will come after I get the DCE1 back with a new compensated saddle! Had a complete setup and fret dressing recently and it plays GREAT! The action is very low and the buzzing is all gone, but the saddle rattles a bit. I've been playing it a lot (despite my S-100 addiction) so that's first in line, then the amp.

There will be more to add to this thread in the future - more questions I'm sure, and some updates. And with all the information submitted by LTG'ers it has become good reference material.

Thanks again!
Geoff.
 

mad dog

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Lots of good points here. I don't own a Marshall, but tube and speaker swap in several other amps. Your quest, Qvart, starts out pretty specific. More bass, and/or less shrill high end. The likely cures have been mentioned. Personally (agreeing with Walter), I've seen the biggest affect on amp tone to come from speakers. Especially in terms of bass response, taming high end. Two favorites in that department are the Emi CRex and Emi Big Ben. In both cases, pretty dramatic improvements in low end presence in circuits that aren't huge on bass. Matched in the CRex by a smooth, clear high end (not dark or muffled as I expected from hemp cone.) While in the Big Ben, there is a high end smoothness as well, but with a raw edge, a throaty character when you push it.

Pre-amp tube changes can be as dramatic. That 5751 Joel and Capnjuan mention did it for me in a tweed pro type (Sewell). 12ay7 is much-used in tweeds at V1 to improve headroom. To my taste, it usually calms the amp down too much. The Sewell is gainy, a real juicy sound. 5751 in V1, then any really good 12ax7 in V2 (a Bogen labelled Mullard in V2 now) turns out to be the magic touch. It was like solving a puzzle. I started off looking for one thing (a little more bass). Found that in the Big Ben. Which made the amp sound so good I started tube swapping to make it even better. That's my point. Try everything at your disposal. It might be cheaper to start with a pre-amp tube, but the answer to your quest is even more likely to be speaker related. Both are worth experimenting with.
 

Qvart

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Qvart said:
There will be more to add to this thread in the future - more questions I'm sure, and some updates...

Update:

Instead of taking my Marshall to the shop where I had my DCE1 setup I stopped by a different shop and asked the guy there about the problem with the sound cutting out once the amp's warmed up. He said there were a couple things that could be wrong, but before bringing it in for diagnosis/repair (and letting it sit for two weeks because he's back-logged) he suggested hooking a cable from the send to the return on the effects loop. Apparently there's a part that can come loose and having a cable plugged in may solve the problem.


marshalleffectsloop.jpg



IT WORKED.

I had the amp on last night for HOURS and the sound didn't cut out at all.

So all is well, as long as I don't suddenly decide I need to use the effects loop!

I'm sure it would still be a good idea to have the bias checked and all that, but it sounds better with the 12AT7 and the sound doesn't cut out anymore, so I'm all set for now. And without the repair bill maybe I'll look around for some different speakers, possibly check out that Mesa Boogie cab with Vintage 30's that was on CL if it's still available.

Thanks again everyone!
-Q.
 

capnjuan

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Hi Q: that's a good piece of luck! Hard to think of a cheaper solution ... but if/when it gets on the bench for bias-checking, don't forget to have the loose thingie fixed. :wink: John
 

Qvart

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danerectal said:
Quality. Even if you use the effects loop, you should still be in business since you still will be plugged in.

Actually, I remember hooking up some effects once and it did the cutting out thing. Then another time it didn't. Which means I'll milk this solution for all it's worth until I have no choice but to put it on the bench.
 

capnjuan

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Qvart said:
.... Apparently there's a part that can come loose and having a cable plugged in may solve the problem.
marshalleffectsloop.jpg

Hi Geoff: your effects loop looks like this schematically (older preamp 'out'/power amp 'in' shown ... works the same way):
Slide1.jpg



Your problem is likely the little red arrow shown in the circle; the electrical connection between the hot post on the 'in' jack and the contact arm:
Slide2-1.jpg



The magenta line represents the signal. It appears on the hot post of the preamp/effects loop 'out' jack but, since nothing is normally connected there, nothing happens. The signal just bypasses the 'out' jack and continues up the contact arm of the 'in' jack, passes between the contact arm and the hot post of the 'in' jack, and continues to the input of the next tube section as shown below:
Slide3.jpg



When cables are plugged in, either 'jumping' like you have it now or to a effects processor / whatever, the amp signal passes out of the amp and back in as indicated by the magenta arrows. When a plug is present in the 'in' jack, it breaks the connection between the contact arm and the hot post of the 'in' jack as shown by the black arrow.
Slide5.jpg



Chances are there's corrosion on tip of the contact arm and its point of contact on the hot post or the contact arm has lost its tension and won't stay put in its normally closed position. Good luck with your amp! John
 
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