Winter Cold and Shipping

[Curlington]

The markets for flattops seem to perk right along regardless of the nasty weather in much of the country. You all will recall that my D40CE has severe finish cracking, reportedly from extreme cold exposure during the time when I had lent it out. Do I dare buy or sell this time of year? Those UPS/USPS trucks and facilities cannot be very well heated. It seems there is a great potential for disaster, or at least severe disappointment. Does the market slow down and I am not seeing it? Does the “smart money” refrain until spring? Thanks, Dave

 

[jgwoods]

I've sold and shipped instruments in all 4 seasons without any problems at all. Bought them too.
I would say Winter and Summer have higher potential for damage to acoustic guitars than Fall or Spring but life goes on and I accept the risks.
I play out in Winter and Summer too- put guitars in cold cars, open them in warm bars, no problems.

 

[evenkeel]

I've sold and shipped instruments in all 4 seasons without any problems at all. Bought them too.
I would say Winter and Summer have higher potential for damage to acoustic guitars than Fall or Spring but life goes on and I accept the risks.
I play out in Winter and Summer too- put guitars in cold cars, open them in warm bars, no problems.

Yeep, pretty much agree. But for a guitar I've bought online and had shipped during the winter I will take a few modest precautions when opening the box and case. Be patient and let the box, case and guitar come up to temp. slowly.

 

[West R Lee]

I have read that Martin will not ship guitars in bitterly cold temperatures. I can't remember if that was in a Martin publication or on a forum. I have had 1 guitar shipped to me in cold weather.......I mean like below zero, shipped from Minneapolis. The guitar arrived safely, but I let her sit in the box for over 8 hours after she arrived. I'd really rather not ship in cold weather.

West

 

[taabru45]

That's so you won't be disappointed when you open your case to see the D18 and it turned into a 0018....cold weather makes things smaller (I hear) West....I think the technical term is 'shrinkage' .... :lol: :lol: Steffan

 

[West R Lee]

That's so you won't be disappointed when you open your case to see the D18 and it turned into a 0018....cold weather makes things smaller (I hear) West....I think the technical term is 'shrinkage' .... :lol: :lol: Steffan

We refer to that as "turtlenecking" down here Steff. :wink:

West

 

[curt]

Humidity is a bigger deal and usually when it's cold it's really dry. If I know a guitar is arriving and it's been cold for a few days, guitar in shipment that is, I'll inspect it outside in the cold to make sure it arrived okay then do the 24 hour thing. Shifts in humidity is what causes the wood to expand and contract and the cold allows the clear to lose it's elasticity, combined you get checking.

 

[jte]

The cold isn't what causes finish checking/cracking, nor wood splitting. It's sudden changes in temperature, and humidity that causes it. When I was a dealer, the only company that wouldn't ship stuff to us (in Central Illinios) in the winter was G&L back in the very early '80s when we were one of the first G&L dealers. Guild, Gibson, Martin, Ovation, Fender, Peavey, etc. all shipped them via UPS in any kind of weather. It was our responsibility to let them warm up slowly before we opened them. If there was apparent damage to the packaging when we got the package, we would have to note it on the UPS delivery receipt, but that only happened once, and that was an amp.

The key is packing the instrument well. A hard-case is critical, and not letting the instrument slide around inside the case is important too. Then you want to stabilize the neck so it doesn't whip around inside the case when the box is dropped. Crumpled newspaper is good for that, and it adds a level of thermal protection too. Then secure the case inside the shipping box so it's not taking the blows of outrageous fortune directly. The best shipping containers were Gibson and Martin who used a form of shrink-wrap to secure the case on a triple-wall corrugated form inside the box.

Once it arrives, let it warm up slowly. The best way is just leave it in the case for a day, or at least four hours. I'd take it out of the shipping box, but leave the case closed most days, but if the outside temperature is below about 10º F, I'd leave the case in the box for several hours and let everything warm up some before handling the case.

John

 

[cjd-player]

Some nonsense being propagated here.

A sudden change in relative humidity will not damage a guitar. Wood cannot absorb or release trapped moisture that quickly. Watch the Taylor videos on humidity. It takes days, typically about 3, in a very dry environment to dry the wood to the point of cracking. Similarly, it takes days to rehumidify or overhumidify the wood.

Nitrocellulose lacquer is subject to expansion and contraction due to temperature. The wood expands and contracts too, because it contains water. So sudden changes in temperature can check the lacquer. But a sudden change in relative humidity will not damage the finish or the wood.

According to Frank Ford at frets.com, nitrrocellulose lacquer can check just by getting too cold. It contracts more than the wood so it has to crack. That's why he calls them "cold checks", although some can be the result of years of aging as well.

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

I also fear about potential winter related shipping problems.
For me, I'll normally try to purchase a guitar that has to be shipped to me, in warmer weather, just to be safe.

 

[curt]

Not nonsense at all. If you have wood floors in your house look at the gaps in the winter as opposed to summer. Checks happen because the finish has lost its elasticity and is unable to keep up with the wood movement. As I said lacquer does become brittle an less elastic when very cold so when the wood contracts because of humidity the finish cracks. Wood will not shrink or contract because of cold. With that said there is a point that wood will crack at a temperature way below zero because of moisture content.

 

[GardMan]

I will not ship, or have shipped to me, a guitar in sub-freezing weather.

The last and only time I did that was with my D-55... it shipped through a New England ice storm, with temps well below freezing. When it arrived, I let it warm up in the shipping box for a good 6 hrs, then opened the box and let it sit in the closed case for another 3-4 hrs. The case was not cold to the touch when I opened the box, the guitar was not cold to the touch when I opened the case... but was covered with lacquer checks the seller swears were not present when he shipped (admittedly, they don't show in the pics, but the visibiltiy of finish checks is pretty dependent on lighting angle).

My only conclusion was that it was the sub-zero temps the guitar was exposed to enroute from NJ that caused the checking... and I don't want to risk that again. Although I love my 55, I still cringe when I see the checking...

I have no scientific proof, just my opinions. But, I won't risk that disappointment again.
Dave

 

[West R Lee]

I will not ship, or have shipped to me, a guitar in sub-freezing weather.

The last and only time I did that was with my D-55... it shipped through a New England ice storm, with temps well below freezing. When it arrived, I let it warm up in the shipping box for a good 6 hrs, then opened the box and let it sit in the closed case for another 3-4 hrs. The case was not cold to the touch when I opened the box, the guitar was not cold to the touch when I opened the case... but was covered with lacquer checks the seller swears were not present when he shipped (admittedly, they don't show in the pics, but the visibiltiy of finish checks is pretty dependent on lighting angle).

My only conclusion was that it was the sub-zero temps the guitar was exposed to enroute from NJ that caused the checking... and I don't want to risk that again. Although I love my 55, I still cringe when I see the checking...

I have no scientific proof, just my opinions. But, I won't risk that disappointment again.
Dave

I don't doubt that at all Dave. And I never will ship or receive in cold weather again. Wood and nitro lacquer expand and contract at different rates, making cold weather shipping very dicey in my opinion.

West

 

[Bill Ashton]

Over on the TDPRI (acoustic section) a young man had the misfortune to drop his newish Martin 000-18, causing a good amount of damage to the lower/bottom bout. He reported back that Martin told him not to ship it there in the cold weather, and recommended a more local luthier who could do the repair as we good as the factory could...I think at one point we had a link or images from that luther up on this board in regards to his work on a smashed Guild...

OTH, when my Gibson J-30 was my only acoustic, I typically went year round bringing it to lessons...no checks. My trouble with her has been in the summer, when the finish appears to get softer and I leave armprints in the upper/bottom bout...

Now, only the poly-coated GAD goes out in the cold weather.

 

[curt]

The other thing to think about is why wood has a finish on it and it's to protect the wood. It slows down the moisture content changes in the wood but keep in mind the entire cavity of an acoustic is unfinished and the moisture content changes quickly.

 

[Curlington]

Thanks much for all the well-reasoned and explained responses. I’ll probably err on the side of caution and wait for the spring thaw. In the meantime, I will concentrate on saying my farewells with more playing time for those on the chopping block. I also need to study up on packing techniques, order some u-line boxes, etc. Cheers, Dave

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

I would think that you could sell faster and get a higher price in the spring.
Who wants to take a chance with cold weather shipping and besides, with spring, comes income tax returns.
Best of luck to you,
TMG

 

[fronobulax]

comes income tax returns.

<veer>
Which may not mean much if the proposal to issue refunds as debit cards takes root.
</veer>

Which actually raises a question. I know there are lists of when certain classes of items are traditionally on sale. Is there a traditional time when retailers put instruments on sale? If so, is it relavent to the timing of a sale between individuals? Do I sell my old guitar in June because the shiny new model comes on sale in July and I need the cash?

 

[curbucci]

Just adding to this thread on Winter shipping. I purchased a Guild (Tacoma) D 40 off of ebay last week. It shipped from CA and arrived here in MN yesterday where it was 3 degrees as a high temp. I was very nervous with this whole thing. The guitar arrived via FedEx ground at around 10 AM. The guitar arrived and I let it sit with the shipping box closed for 2 hours at the warehouse were I work were the temp is at around 65 - 67 degrees. At my lunch break I opened up the top of the shipping box and let it sit for 3 hours. I then took it the case out of the shipping box and let it sit for 1 hour. Before I left work, after letting it adjust for 6 hours, I took it out of the case. The guitar was fine! It shipped FedEx ground. I believe FedEx is still transporting their packages across country to their hubs by plane as opposed by truck like UPS does. So my experience was a good one with winter shipping and FedEx.

The D 40 is a 2008 and is in pristine condition. No playing scratches on the finish. The plastic was still on the pickguard! It doesn't seem like it was handled at all. I am very happy to once again have a Guild.

 

[Bill Ashton]

Congratulations on the new and successful arrival...the finish checking started after you got it home and opened it up following the drive home in the cold car, right? :wink: Thats OK, its "mojo..."

Of course, as a new member to this illustrious computer bulletin board, you may not realize that none of what you spoke of happened without pictures!

We await your posting of that lovely Eastern Red Spruce soundboard and perfectly stained mahogany with baited breath...