String Break Question

[midnightright]

Yeah, it looks exactly like that, except that there is that first wrap (or whatever you want to call it) is going over, or above the string sticking out of the hole, pointing upwards, and to the left. There are no sharp bends, or whatever other poor word choices I’d used.

I’m constantly adjusting and applying pressure with my left index finger and thumb to get it just right at the tuning post as well. I don’t have a guitar now that I can do it with to show you an example. And even if I did, it’s a pretty safe bet I wouldn’t be smart enough to figure out how to post it!

Thanks again-

And I can’t believe it did that to that laminate top! I should also note that my cat likes to hover around me at all times when playing, and so there’s a constant concern for her: it’s like I’m a jungle gym...

 

[adorshki]

Yeah, it looks exactly like that, except that there is that first wrap (or whatever you want to call it) is going over, or above the string sticking out of the hole, pointing upwards, and to the left. There are no sharp bends, or whatever other poor word choices I’d used.

You mean like the first pic in my post #9?:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/p...3nRrosPLQyzVcvTCtRWz8rDJBDueGF5PAT8ckD_n9Rfpo
It's that "wrap back" that I think creates not only a kink, but serves to focus more stress there.
I just omit it and make things that much harder on myself.
Penance for all the innocent strings I murdered over the years.

 

[midnightright]

No, like the one here! : )

Not sure I understand "around yet another string", but in my technique I keep adjusting the radius of that bend right where the string enters the hole from the nut instead of putting any type of sharp bend in one spot, and the rotation of the post gradually tightens it.
There are no "overlaps", or feedback into the hole, only successive coils below the posthole.
Just like this:

You can even see that string is showing a little bit of "radius" that extends wider than the coil below it 'cause it's not a sharp kink at the hole, it'll gradually tighten up as the string is brought up to pitch.
But that acts like a buffer for the ups and downs of tuning changes.

I haven't used "the other method" for like 38 years...in fact I don't remember exactly how I did it on Stringeater before I realized I needed to "fix" the problem, and that was my first steel string. So I've done it that way ever since: "If it works don't change it".
Before that I had classicals and breakage was never the problem.
But if it works for you I'm not trying to argue it, only explain the rationale of my method.
Early on with the D25 I used to get some breakage on the G at the saddle simply because I'd play a set to death but even that subsided after a couple of years as I started changing 'em more often and started getting a little lighter-handed style.

 

[Christopher Cozad]

Yeah, it looks exactly like that, except that there is that first wrap (or whatever you want to call it) is going over, or above the string sticking out of the hole, pointing upwards, and to the left. There are no sharp bends, or whatever other poor word choices I’d used.

I believe something like this is what you have been attempting to describe...

 

[adorshki]

I believe something like this is what you have been attempting to describe...

Nope, that's what I thought at first too, but if I understood correctly, he confirms he means this:

in the last post just before yours.
He's just still learning the fine points of editing posts for quote and posting pics.
:friendly_wink:

 

[midnightright]

Yes, I think this is it! As I said, it’s been about 5 years or so since I’ve done it that way. But I should soon be in possession of an instrument that will allow me to do so in such a fashion again. When I do, I will figure out how to show you a photo. Or die trying! ;^) sorry for the confusion in the previous post! That picture looks like how I do it now...

I believe something like this is what you have been attempting to describe...

 

[Rayk]

Does anybody know what happens when you break a string with the capo on? It’s something I’ve never done, and always been curious about.

Now, until very recently, I had done all of my tuning—which is where I break 99.9% of my strings (usually the ‘G,’ which I’m told actually has the thinnest core)—prior to placing the capo on the neck. This usually happens when going back and forth between drastic tunings.

So, I’m just wondering how different it is, if at all? Thanks in advance.

I have not broke any strings in a long time maybe I'm not playing enough?
��

 

[Christopher Cozad]

Ray's post made me take another look at the OP. I'm not certain if I have seen anyone address the causes of string breaks?

Assuming no one here is guilty of ridiculously over-tightening strings and/or constant tightening/loosening of the strings ad nauseam...

Under optimal conditions, strings should not break often, if at all. Frequent breakage indicates a problem, and breakage that follows a consistent pattern provides clues as to the nature of the break.

String failure (breaks) most commonly occur at the machine head(s), the saddle, and the nut, though there are potentially multiple points of contact along a guitar string that can contribute to the weakening of the string material eventually leading to failure.

1. The tuning machine / machine head: Specifically, the hole through which the string is passed, and over which the string may be wound. Metal to metal contact is fine so long as there are no sharp creases that can weaken a string.

Remedy: Replace the tuner or carefully, meticulously grind/file/sand/polish the offending metal surface to remove a burr or sharp edge.


1a. Too many wraps around the post: Winding and winding and winding and winding a string around the post such that it lays back across itself as it leaves the post and travels toward the nut is a surefire way to weaken a string. I do not have hard evidence; merely selective memories of that dreaded SNAP! sound, but this may be a primary cause of string breakage.

Remedy: Practice. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to leave just enough string length for a single layer of windings down the length of the post.


2. The nut: Specifically, the point at which the string exits the nut. Even though (most) acoustic guitar nuts are not metal, a sharp point of contact (such as is caused by a very deep, very tight nut slot) can be responsible for a break.

Remedy: Carefully dress the nut slots, ensuring there are no sharp points of contact.


3. The saddle: Specifically, the point at which the string contacts the saddle. Even though (most) acoustic guitar saddles are not metal, if a string is laying across a too sharp a peak a break can occur. This issue may be exacerbated by a dramatic break angle (the degree to which the string exits the backside of the saddle and enters the bridge).

Remedy: Carefully dress the saddle peaks, ensuring there are no sharp points of contact.


4. The break angle (rare): Specifically, the point at which the string enters the bridge. If this is where your string is breaking, it may be due to a sharp point of contact with the bridge that is creasing and weakening the string.

Remedy: Carefully dress the bridge at the point where the string exits. A sharp edhe can be radiused, and/or a ramp can be cut to ease the transition.


5. The ball end (rare): A break at this point may be due to improper contact with the bridgeplate (I have seen this occur with metal plates affixed over worn wooden plates).

Remedy: Hopefully this would be resolved by trying another string, and paying attention to how the ball end contacts the bridgeplate. However, if breaks continue, it may require repair/replacement of the bridgeplate.


6. The fret (rare): A ridge along a fretwire can cause a string break, especially with repeated contact (such as is caused by frequent string bending).

Remedy: Dress the fret(s).

 

[adorshki]

Ray's post made me take another look at the OP. I'm not certain if I have seen anyone address the causes of string breaks?

Assuming no one here is guilty of ridiculously over-tightening strings and/or constant tightening/loosening of the strings ...

In OP's case there was repeated up and down tuning as he alternated between different tunings, with breakage at the tuning post.

"Sometimes I feel, sometimes I feel,
Like I been tied to the tunin' post.
Tied to the tunin' post, tied to the tunin' post.
Good Lord, I feel like I'm dyin'."

Probably beats a botched hanging, though.
:glee:

 

[Rayk]

In OP's case there was repeated up and down tuning as he alternated between different tunings, with breakage at the tuning post.


:glee:

I tune up and down but not constantly .

Questions , is it breaking at the hole of the tuner ?
What is the range of tuning going on , standard to low opens or that plus going above standard like open A ?
Abit out of order but ,
Are there enough winds on the tuner to compensate for the constant slack and tightening ? Less winds will allow more movement.
Is just one string or others ?

What brand strings and gauge ?

We need more info ! Lol

Sorry been sipping the Even Williams Cherry whiskey lol

 

[adorshki]

I tune up and down but not constantly .

Questions , is it breaking at the hole of the tuner ?

"Yes", post #6

What is the range of tuning going on , standard to low opens or that plus going above standard like open A ?
Abit out of order but ,
Are there enough winds on the tuner to compensate for the constant slack and tightening ? Less winds will allow more movement.
Is just one string or others ?

What brand strings and gauge ?

We need more info ! Lol

All answered in post #19.

Sorry been sipping the Even Williams Cherry whiskey lol

Well it'd probably make the string's decapitation a little less stressful.

 

[midnightright]

Adhorshki, as usual, is on top of things (“he’s very good...& thorough!”)! Yes, most of these happy accidents occurred learning & playing Nick Drake’s songs.

So, once I’d done that, my own personal set, for lack of a better, involved essentially playing all the songs I knew (a couple of hands full) in a row. Nearly every time I sat down to play—hopefully, several times a day. At this time, I was playing either a D-4 or a DV-6 & more medium gauges than light (though there were exceptions).

As I said, this has been temporarily remedied in recent years by not playing particular songs, and not playing nearly as often. Also, I’d added more guitars to my stable in the interim. The string will generally break after playing in BEBEBE (3 / 2 / no steps down?), then going back up, to say CGCFCE, then standard—w/some other intermediate tunings sprinkled in...

So, in summary, the vast majority of the time it was a Guild Dreadnaught, and medium gauge poly/nanoweb strings. Back in the beginning of this period the G string would pop even when brand new (lending credence to the argument of method, or technique). I’ve since converted to John Pearce light gauge phosphor bronze, and have encountered far fewer of these episodes.

I don’t have a Guild at the moment, and my Yamaha, which I cannot string the way I did my Guilds, due to lack of available room on the tuning post, has not undergone a string change in about two and a half years (sat dormant for quite a bit of this). I play most things in Eb (1/2 step down) these days, but when I do go back to the other tunings, I’d entertained the notion of retuning once capo is applied (something I’ve never done before—just played out of tune/or had certain strings stretch sharp, I think...).

All which led to the beginning of this discussion, and I must say, my apologies for the incomprehensible, often barely coherent posts. They’re not always my intent!

 

[adorshki]

All which led to the beginning of this discussion, and I must say, my apologies for the incomprehensible, often barely coherent posts. They’re not always my intent!

Hah.
You shoulda seen RayK when he started....
:glee:

 

[davismanLV]

Lot's of information here and help for those who have trouble with this problem which is such a rare occurrence for me and a lot of others. I'm scheduled for two string changes tomorrow and one's a 12 string. Wish me peace and Xanax..... I hate restringing a 12. I really do. But at this point I'm gonna say you've gotten lots of good advice.

My favorite is when Al chimes in for several paragraphs and you realize later.... that's he's sort of agreeing with you even though he didn't say 'uh huh"......

 

[Rayk]

Hah.
You shoulda seen RayK when he started....
:glee:

Amen brother it holds true today it's all just Ray speak . Lol

I missed post 19 . Figures .......��

 

[midnightright]

Ah yes, indeed, I agree! Had I not started experimenting in the assorted tunings (starting in standard, leaving all strings the same, but the G down to E, & then making my descent downward; followed back up by gradually going upward, and returning to the home base of standard—I forgot there’s even one tuning lower than BEBEBE) this wouldn’t have ever happened...

Other than the string snapping I’d earlier described, I don’t think I’ve broken another string any other way, since I began playing—I guess I’m not aggressive enough (though for a long time on electrics, I used 13 gauge strings: that might’ve helped!). This was the late 90’s, all electric—one to be exact, and I started off with metal and grunge. Strange that of the four Seattle bands (& I always kind of include two others from that similar time period, who, had they been in Seattle would have been considered part of the same scene—Smashing Pumpkins & Stone Temple Pilots; Chicago & L. A.); only two of the four Frontmen are left. Very head scratching, to say the least...

 

[midnightright]

Thank you for taking the time to help explain all of this to me! Never knew most of it. : )

Ray's post made me take another look at the OP. I'm not certain if I have seen anyone address the causes of string breaks?

Assuming no one here is guilty of ridiculously over-tightening strings and/or constant tightening/loosening of the strings ad nauseam...

Under optimal conditions, strings should not break often, if at all. Frequent breakage indicates a problem, and breakage that follows a consistent pattern provides clues as to the nature of the break.

String failure (breaks) most commonly occur at the machine head(s), the saddle, and the nut, though there are potentially multiple points of contact along a guitar string that can contribute to the weakening of the string material eventually leading to failure.

1. The tuning machine / machine head: Specifically, the hole through which the string is passed, and over which the string may be wound. Metal to metal contact is fine so long as there are no sharp creases that can weaken a string.

Remedy: Replace the tuner or carefully, meticulously grind/file/sand/polish the offending metal surface to remove a burr or sharp edge.


1a. Too many wraps around the post: Winding and winding and winding and winding a string around the post such that it lays back across itself as it leaves the post and travels toward the nut is a surefire way to weaken a string. I do not have hard evidence; merely selective memories of that dreaded SNAP! sound, but this may be a primary cause of string breakage.

Remedy: Practice. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to leave just enough string length for a single layer of windings down the length of the post.


2. The nut: Specifically, the point at which the string exits the nut. Even though (most) acoustic guitar nuts are not metal, a sharp point of contact (such as is caused by a very deep, very tight nut slot) can be responsible for a break.

Remedy: Carefully dress the nut slots, ensuring there are no sharp points of contact.


3. The saddle: Specifically, the point at which the string contacts the saddle. Even though (most) acoustic guitar saddles are not metal, if a string is laying across a too sharp a peak a break can occur. This issue may be exacerbated by a dramatic break angle (the degree to which the string exits the backside of the saddle and enters the bridge).

Remedy: Carefully dress the saddle peaks, ensuring there are no sharp points of contact.


4. The break angle (rare): Specifically, the point at which the string enters the bridge. If this is where your string is breaking, it may be due to a sharp point of contact with the bridge that is creasing and weakening the string.

Remedy: Carefully dress the bridge at the point where the string exits. A sharp edhe can be radiused, and/or a ramp can be cut to ease the transition.


5. The ball end (rare): A break at this point may be due to improper contact with the bridgeplate (I have seen this occur with metal plates affixed over worn wooden plates).

Remedy: Hopefully this would be resolved by trying another string, and paying attention to how the ball end contacts the bridgeplate. However, if breaks continue, it may require repair/replacement of the bridgeplate.


6. The fret (rare): A ridge along a fretwire can cause a string break, especially with repeated contact (such as is caused by frequent string bending).

Remedy: Dress the fret(s).

 

[Christopher Cozad]

Thank you for taking the time to help explain all of this to me! Never knew most of it. : )

You are welcome. It may be helpful in the future (such as when you acquire your next Guild).

 

[Rayk]

No kidding really - a snapping string can be quite dangerous. About 50 years ago tuning a 12-string Höfner - octave-G ( if my shaky memory serves me right - could've been a B-string ) broke at nut and it went right through the laminated top - about 5mm deep. Must have been just the correct angle to do so. Just think how deep into skin that might go - or your eyeballs.

And yes - first time with new string - I allways lean back a bit.

I had one snap at the bridge I grab the next in my left hand swung the guitar about looking for string ,I couldn't find it. I switched hands with the guitar swinging to my right and my left hand went with it .
It went right through my finger nail of my 3rd finger. Lol ouch !

 

[adorshki]

Amen brother it holds true today it's all just Ray speak . Lol

We discriminate against no man, woman, or other, here, based on their native tongue.
Yer one of us now.
Or considering how well we understand you now, maybe it's the other way around?
:shocked:

My favorite is when Al chimes in for several paragraphs and you realize later.... that's he's sort of agreeing with you even though he didn't say 'uh huh"......

Never use the short tool when the long one will do.
Peace and Xanax.