Guild M120 setup help. What driver to use for truss rod? Factory spec for action?

[rmz76]

Recently posted about my acquisition of a Guild M120, this Asian built "Westerly Collection" Guild has a very odd pocket for the truss rod. I have a normal hex set. A simple set like you can find at the local Walmart that works both SAE and Metric. I'm able to use this on all my guitars. But the full length of the long side of the hex wrench (which measures about 4.5") just goes all the way into the pocket without making contact with anything... It's as if there is no truss rod there or I need a much longer wrench to get to it.

My other question is around the action. From the factory, the saddle on this instrument is very high compared to other new purchases. I understand that getting action right at the factory can be expensive, but the more I play the guitar compared to my others and having taken measurements, I find what they did with this m120 is unacceptable. I would classify it as barely playable. beyond cowboy chords.

It can be fixed, and I will fix it, but my bigger question is why does GUILD care so little about the showroom experience of their instruments. I don't visit music stores often anymore, but decided to take a drive up to day to local Guitar Center. Outside the sub $200 entry level garbage bin, no acoustic guitar was as bad as my M120. They had no other Guild guitars in stock to compare to, but why Guild? Why? This did not all happen in transport either. The saddle is like 1/2 high. It's as if there was zero effort put into making the guitar playable on the showroom... I usually take a few months before giving an instrument a setup, just to figure out where I want to adjust it to, but this guitar is completely unplayable until I give it some work and that deep truss rod pocket has me worried it has no truss rod at all.

I know this reads mostly like a rant. I am very unhappy about the out of the box action, just because it's so far from where other vendors are in 2023 with that they deliver out of the box. Sure even Martin's and Gibson's high-end guitars need a setup often, but they are NOT this god awful and far off the mark. I respect guild less as a builder for having let this slip out, it's impossible every guitar comes this way.

 

[fronobulax]

I thought the Westerly Collection instruments came with a tool to adjust the truss rod. Is that no longer the case or has the tool somehow gone missing?

You're not happy and nothing I say will change that. There are some things that might explain your experience.

First, I have read similar rants and when the smoke cleared and the shouting stopped the instrument that had been delivered was adjusted to factory specs at delivery. There was nothing wrong except the ranter's expectations.

IMO Guild's dealer network is in disarray and being rebuilt. Some instruments are shipped directly to a customer. Some dealers will give an instrument in an unopened box to a customer. Some dealers will unbox and check an instrument and others will unbox in the presence of the customer and check some items then. But Guild is not imposing a common practice on dealers. So the showroom experience is very much determined by the showroom and not necessarily Guild.

In this I have to say that Guitar Center's reputation for service is so low that you might consider whether Guild or GC is the source of your issues. Maybe the saddle issue is something that a GC employee introduced while unpacking or tuning? This wouldn't be the first time.

Guild has had issues with the imports. At one time instruments were inspected in the US before going to dealers but that has stopped. So it is fair to complain that the final inspection and setup is at the factory and the customer is the next inspector.

Assuming this is a new purchase from an authorized Guild dealer you might consider returning it if for no other reason than someone in a position to do something about it knows of your complaints.

If this is not a new instrument from an authorized dealer, is it really fair to blame Guild for something that could have happened outside of the dealer network?

You're not happy and are allowed to complain. But you might wish to consider whether Guild deserves all of the blame.

That said you are not the first person who has had concerns about brand new Westerly Collection instruments so Guild definitely has some opportunities to improve. Maybe new owner Yamaha will take those opportunities?

 

[rmz76]

I thought the Westerly Collection instruments came with a tool to adjust the truss rod. Is that no longer the case or has the tool somehow gone missing?

You're not happy and nothing I say will change that. There are some things that might explain your experience.

First, I have read similar rants and when the smoke cleared and the shouting stopped the instrument that had been delivered was adjusted to factory specs at delivery. There was nothing wrong except the ranter's expectations.

IMO Guild's dealer network is in disarray and being rebuilt. Some instruments are shipped directly to a customer. Some dealers will give an instrument in an unopened box to a customer. Some dealers will unbox and check an instrument and others will unbox in the presence of the customer and check some items then. But Guild is not imposing a common practice on dealers. So the showroom experience is very much determined by the showroom and not necessarily Guild.

In this I have to say that Guitar Center's reputation for service is so low that you might consider whether Guild or GC is the source of your issues. Maybe the saddle issue is something that a GC employee introduced while unpacking or tuning? This wouldn't be the first time.

Guild has had issues with the imports. At one time instruments were inspected in the US before going to dealers but that has stopped. So it is fair to complain that the final inspection and setup is at the factory and the customer is the next inspector.

Assuming this is a new purchase from an authorized Guild dealer you might consider returning it if for no other reason than someone in a position to do something about it knows of your complaints.

If this is not a new instrument from an authorized dealer, is it really fair to blame Guild for something that could have happened outside of the dealer network?

You're not happy and are allowed to complain. But you might wish to consider whether Guild deserves all of the blame.

That said you are not the first person who has had concerns about brand new Westerly Collection instruments so Guild definitely has some opportunities to improve. Maybe new owner Yamaha will take those opportunities?

Thanks for the comments. To clear a few things up, I did not buy the guitar from GC. This was a Reverb.com purchase, new from an authorized dealer. It shipped from several states away and I expected to have to do some setup work on it. That's normal. That's expected.

Also, I want to give Guild a lot of credit for what they did get right, keeping in mind this is a sub $1000 guitar.

• The nut is cut perfect. This is just something that sadly I've seen not done right on $2000+ Gibsons. It's perfect on this Guild M120
• The fretwork is flawless. Smooth edges top and bottom of board and zero dead notes or scratch, even after lowering the action.
• It's a beautiful guitar. The wood selection is top shelf. With veneer finishes it's easy for a builder to get a good "piece of wood" aesthetic. Veneers are cheap and a few dozen guitars and share the same top look. Usually on all-solid wood, sub $1k import models there's some compromises, I don't see that Guild has compromised anything!

Will also say, as annoying as really high factory action is, it's a very minor thing compared to all the hard work, cost that go into getting the bullet points above right and Guild delivered on this. I'm super impressed by that.

The truss rod is deep in the pocket. Apparently on the USA built Guild acoustics, Guild uses the same truss rod type as Taylor, but for their imports they have a 5mm very long L-shaped wrench. This was actually included with the guitar in the gig bag's pouch. I had missed it the seller pointed out to me where to find it. I was told that you do need a very long L shaped hex wrench for the Westerly Collection guitars.

But the stock height of the saddle is ridiculous, I'm including a picture. This is offensively high and 100% the factory. The depth of the saddle slot doesn't change. The saddle doesn't sand itself, environmental conditions in transport account for changes to neck bow/back bow, but this is just sloppy work at the factory.

Did my usual measurements and saddle shaving, added just a little back bow and what a difference. Managed to reduce string height at the 12th by about 40% and it's matching some of my favorite other acoustics in string height now.

Saddle picture below is how it was out of the box before shaving. Quarter at 12th picture showing the lower action after setup (truss rod adjustment and saddle shave) compare to the before quarter at 12th picture in my top post.

 

[fronobulax]

Thanks for the clarifications and an apology for misunderstanding the situation or jumping to wrong conclusions.

I cannot speak with and credibility as to whether the saddle is too high or not but if it is then the last entity to look at the guitar before you opened the box certainly missed an opportunity. When FMIC owned Guild there was a FMIC employee whose job included visiting the overseas factories making Guilds and that happened about once a month. But that was also a time when FMIC was establishing the relationships with the factories and there is a lot of evidence that things have "slipped" since then.

 

[rmz76]

Well after spending quite a bit of time with the guitar after proper setup I have to say I've never been quite this disappointment in a purchase. My big problem with the M120 is tone. It's not because it's a small bodied guitar that's struggling to deliver bass. I don't expect a lot of bass. However for an all solid wood, Mahagony parlor size instrument I do expect shimmering yet warm highs with sweet sustain and decay. This guitar is absolutely incapable of that. It has nothing to do with being made overseas. I have a Blueridge BR60 that's even laminate b&s that can hold its own with a Martin D18 and an all-solid wood Blueridge BG160 that blows away my Gibson J-45.

This is just bad design. The top braces are very short and fat. That's going to crush tone. No competent person would build a guitar like that. It sounds like a shoebox, it's on par with something like the Epiphone LG-00 which is not a great instrument.

After going through a few different strings and giving it a good setup I can confidently say the M120 is the worst sounding all-solid wood guitar I've ever played. It sounds a very cheap guitar and that's very sad. There are people who love this model so dumping it won't be a problem, but it angers me that quality African Mahagony wood was so mishandled to build this tone crushing little box. The waste of the wood is probably what gets to me the most.

I suspect the USA built Guild guitars might be better. I'll never find out. I'm 100% done with Guild after this bad experience. It's sad we don't have music stories to try before you buy anymore and that one bad experience can write off a brand, but that's the world we live in in 2023 and I've never been more done with a brand than I am with Guild. So I guess my stay on this forum was short lived. I do love the sound of some of the vintage models and mean no disrespect, just sharing what has been unfortunately a very negative experience.

I don't know how a competent luthier could make an all-solid wood guitar sound so bad, I'm left wondering if perhaps the fat short top bracing isn't something intentionally done to make the M120's tone stand apart from M20 and help the M20 sound better? I haven't seen the top bracing of an M20 to know, it might be the same. Just trying to find some rational for why someone would brace a guitar like this given its tone crushing effect.

 

[kostask]

Sorry you had a bad experience, but I need to point out a few things:

-The saddle being high may or may not have been that way from the factory. You are jumping to a conclusion without evidence to back it up. Unless you know categorically that the guitar was completely untouched, you cannot conclude that the guitar saddle was at factory height. Maybe the dealer had a customer who wanted it set up for slide, maybe not. Maybe they all come that way, but it hasn't been noted by anybody but you that the saddle height is "ridiculous". You ranted on this at length, but you then stated that you expected the guitar would need work. So have the work done, before getting on here and ranting about how high the action is. Just know that all factory new guitars come with a high action, because it is far easier for a dealer or luthier to lower the action than it is to have them cut a new saddle because the action is too low. Was the saddle "ridiculously" high? If you think so, then it was. However, if you know that the guitar will need a setup, and that you know that you will be having a setup done, then what is the point of your initial rant? I'd also like to know how you were "offended" by an excessively high saddle.

-The truss rod being put into the neck so deeply is a design choice. Guild knows that, and included a suitable truss rod wrench in the gig bag pouch. So, I don't think this was an issue.

-As for tone, that is in the ear of the beholder. My own experience is that it takes a lot longer than two days to get a good feel for a guitar's tone. While it may be that you will never bond with this guitar, and it has happened to anybody who has played more than a couple of guitars, and neither you nor they were wrong in that, I will note that you bought this guitar sight unseen from a dealer a couple of states away. You got a dud. Simple as that. All factory built guitars, no matter what factory they come from, produce a few "bad" guitars, a few "great" guitars, and the vast majority are "good" guitars. You simply got a bad example, and I would be willing to bet that the dealer puts his worst guitars on Reverb, reserving the "good" and "great" guitars for his own shop where people buy guitars in person. This is a chance we all take when shopping online.

-As for the braces being short and fat, please feel free to define short and fat, and what your concept of ideal brace dimensions is. Obviously, there are a lot of people who have bought the same guitar and are happy with their purchase. Not only on Youtube, or on Reverb, but on this same board that we are conversing on. And believe me, if there was a problem, at the very least, the people on this board would have noted it. There is no shortage of guitar knowledge on this board, and some, who also have M120 guitars, have a pretty good pair of ears. I read this whole point as you being unhappy with the guitar, or are unable to bond with it, and that is fine. It doesn't meet your expectations, and it also happens, even with Martins, Gibsons, Taylors and with hand built guitars on occasion. Your expectations are what they are based on the tonal qualities that you like. But there are enough positive reviews that suggest that there is no design defect with the M120, and your saying so on the basis of your one, online bought guitar isn't going to change that. We have had on going debates here regarding the Guild Contemporary Series guitars, with their unusual (yet creative) composite neck block design, so nobody here is shy about calling out something Guild did or does if they feel that it is a design flaw. Yet, nobody aside from you has said any such thing about the M120 in any of the reviews here.

I'm not trying to put you down or to discredit you, but you bought a guitar online, possibly from a less than stellar dealer, spent two days with it, and on the basis of that, have decided that not only do you not like this guitar (which is evident), but that guitar is the basis of your saying "I'm 100% done with Guild after this bad experience", dumping the M120 (which is made in China) and using it as the basis for your dismissal of Guild entirely (including the US made Guilds, which are built half a world away by a completely different work force, and in all honesty, have very little in common with the Chinese made models). You can do that, but the basis for this conclusion seems somewhat shaky, at the very least.

 

[rmz76]

Sorry you had a bad experience, but I need to point out a few things:

-The saddle being high may or may not have been that way from the factory. You are jumping to a conclusion without evidence to back it up. Unless you know categorically that the guitar was completely untouched, you cannot conclude that the guitar saddle was at factory height. Maybe the dealer had a customer who wanted it set up for slide, maybe not. Maybe they all come that way, but it hasn't been noted by anybody but you that the saddle height is "ridiculous". You ranted on this at length, but you then stated that you expected the guitar would need work. So have the work done, before getting on here and ranting about how high the action is. Just know that all factory new guitars come with a high action, because it is far easier for a dealer or luthier to lower the action than it is to have them cut a new saddle because the action is too low. Was the saddle "ridiculously" high? If you think so, then it was. However, if you know that the guitar will need a setup, and that you know that you will be having a setup done, then what is the point of your initial rant? I'd also like to know how you were "offended" by an excessively high saddle.

-The truss rod being put into the neck so deeply is a design choice. Guild knows that, and included a suitable truss rod wrench in the gig bag pouch. So, I don't think this was an issue.

-As for tone, that is in the ear of the beholder. My own experience is that it takes a lot longer than two days to get a good feel for a guitar's tone. While it may be that you will never bond with this guitar, and it has happened to anybody who has played more than a couple of guitars, and neither you nor they were wrong in that, I will note that you bought this guitar sight unseen from a dealer a couple of states away. You got a dud. Simple as that. All factory built guitars, no matter what factory they come from, produce a few "bad" guitars, a few "great" guitars, and the vast majority are "good" guitars. You simply got a bad example, and I would be willing to bet that the dealer puts his worst guitars on Reverb, reserving the "good" and "great" guitars for his own shop where people buy guitars in person. This is a chance we all take when shopping online.

-As for the braces being short and fat, please feel free to define short and fat, and what your concept of ideal brace dimensions is. Obviously, there are a lot of people who have bought the same guitar and are happy with their purchase. Not only on Youtube, or on Reverb, but on this same board that we are conversing on. And believe me, if there was a problem, at the very least, the people on this board would have noted it. There is no shortage of guitar knowledge on this board, and some, who also have M120 guitars, have a pretty good pair of ears. I read this whole point as you being unhappy with the guitar, or are unable to bond with it, and that is fine. It doesn't meet your expectations, and it also happens, even with Martins, Gibsons, Taylors and with hand built guitars on occasion. Your expectations are what they are based on the tonal qualities that you like. But there are enough positive reviews that suggest that there is no design defect with the M120, and your saying so on the basis of your one, online bought guitar isn't going to change that. We have had on going debates here regarding the Guild Contemporary Series guitars, with their unusual (yet creative) composite neck block design, so nobody here is shy about calling out something Guild did or does if they feel that it is a design flaw. Yet, nobody aside from you has said any such thing about the M120 in any of the reviews here.

I'm not trying to put you down or to discredit you, but you bought a guitar online, possibly from a less than stellar dealer, spent two days with it, and on the basis of that, have decided that not only do you not like this guitar (which is evident), but that guitar is th. e basis of your saying "I'm 100% done with Guild after this bad experience", dumping the M120 (which is made in China) and using it as the basis for your dismissal of Guild entirely (including the US made Guilds, which are built half a world away by a completely different work force, and in all honesty, have very little in common with the Chinese made models). You can do that, but the basis for this conclusion seems somewhat shaky, at the very least.

Regarding tone and bracing observations

Even with the strings off, I can't get a good measuring tool into the sound hole, so I have to give approximate measurements on the bracing. They are very short, somewhere around 1/4" and probably around 1/4" wide, never have I found a guitar with bracing as fat as it is tall... While "good tone" is certainly subjective, you also have proven design techniques to get the most out of the top, these techniques not only published in luthier training books but in the Internet age readily available in videos where boutique builders discuss their techniques.

The Westerly Collection is built overseas with some expected compromises, but what's going on under the M120's top is an abomination to wood. It goes way beyond putting durability over tone, it's intentionally trying to keep the top from movement in a way I've never seen before and that impact is coming through in the sound. It makes no sense why anyone would brace a guitar like this unless they were trying to dampen the tone intentionally. Objectively it is about as far as you can get from what you find in well built instruments, where the design is aiming to give the top as much movement as possible. Objectively the build technique Guild went with on the $699 MSRP M120 gives it overbuilt qualities similar to that of sub $200 value guitars.

Regarding the positive reviews and players tonal preference

To your point, if an artist prefers the tone of cheap guitars, that's their right. This could be in part ignorance about what a well designed guitar can sound like, or just preference. Regardless, if a builder is choosing to brace the top to restrict movement, the use of all-solid back and side wood is canceled out. The use of all-solid wood for b&s becomes a checkmark on a spec sheet the vendor is using to make their product appealing, it's not a functional contribution to tone. The guitar itself a fraud of sorts and it becomes am epitome of Corporate greed. I firmly believe the luthiers at Guild knew what they were doing and this is the case. I can not prove that, but the alternative is that they are incompetent and I don't buy that.

The positive reviews on-line are YouTube videos and store views from customers. The store front reviews are coming from sales staff or store owners who need the feed their families, there is no reason to believe they are being objective when they recommend product or brands. As for the positive customer reviews. Guild included a little card in the gig bag offering me free gifts to write a (positive) review on at least one big bog retailer website for the guitar. So Cordova understands the current landscape and how to buy influence and positive perception of their products. To the extent these efforts are working, I don't know. But I know the Science behind getting the most tone out of out a guitar top

 

[fronobulax]

I suspect the USA built Guild guitars might be better. I'll never find out. I'm 100% done with Guild after this bad experience.

It's your time and your money but saying you are done with Guild after one bad experience, and with a new product at a low price point, is kind of like me saying all Texans are aholes and I am never going back there again just because one car with Texas plates chose to tailgate me while I was doing the speed limit in the right lane and the left lane was clear to pass.

I note that some of your subsequent comments seem to be about Guild's choices in design and execution. The typical consumer does not second guess the design choices of the manufacturer. They evaluate the product as is and buy, or not, rather than focus on what it could have been. If your expertise and experience is such that you could design and build a better instrument under the same price and material constraints I hope that next time you will make the effort to assess the design before you purchase, even if you have to restrict your search to products that you can inspect in hand, before purchase.

I certainly hope you have returned the unsatisfactory instrument for a refund.

 

[rmz76]

It's your time and your money but saying you are done with Guild after one bad experience, and with a new product at a low price point, is kind of like me saying all Texans are aholes and I am never going back there again just because one car with Texas plates chose to tailgate me while I was doing the speed limit in the right lane and the left lane was clear to pass.

I note that some of your subsequent comments seem to be about Guild's choices in design and execution. The typical consumer does not second guess the design choices of the manufacturer. They evaluate the product as is and buy, or not, rather than focus on what it could have been. If your expertise and experience is such that you could design and build a better instrument under the same price and material constraints I hope that next time you will make the effort to assess the design before you purchase, even if you have to restrict your search to products that you can inspect in hand, before purchase.

I certainly hope you have returned the unsatisfactory instrument for a refund.

Well, there's a Science and art to getting the most out of a guitar top. You have boutique builders who painstakingly find that threshold where the guitar can be built as lightly as possible and the top supported just enough to be structurally sound and allow the top to flow freely and deliver optimal performance... For... let's call them cheap/value guitars, builders have found compromised ways to approach mass production with bracing and still manage to find an acceptable sweet spot. The Yamaha FG800s a good example. From sound clips, I suspect the Guild A20 Bob Marley may also deliver this, albeit at a much higher price point but with artist estate endorsement and a nice gig bag including... The M120 is very different. The bracing choices cripple the guitar's top from movement. You do not have to be a luthier to understand the basic science behind what bracing does and how incredibly bad the M120 is designed.

It's designed to be muffled and it's already a small bodied guitar.

Is this based on historic spec? I don't know. Was it done intentionally because perhaps the m120 sounded a bit too close to the $900 premium USA built m20 and guild needed to muffle the import model... I hate to speculate that, but sadly it's the only thing that makes sense. Guild/Cordova would never admit that if it were true, but it is common with electrics and acoustics for builders to intentionally cut corners and sometimes even make silly downgrades that would cost them nothing to change just to make their USA product more appealing. I want to understand why the design choices were made but never will, so I'm just left with the data I have.

One way to help clear this up is if someone with a m20 and m120 could compare the bracing inside and see how similar or dissimilar they are. It's possibly I'd hate the m20 as well.

 

[adorshki]

I suspect the USA built Guild guitars might be better. I'll never find out. I'm 100% done with Guild after this bad experience.

You expect sympathy from folks here with far more experience with US-built Guilds and their history and design philosophy than you, with an attitude like that?

Why did you bother coming here?

 

[fronobulax]

You expect sympathy from folks here with far more experience with US-built Guilds and their history and design philosophy than you, with an attitude like that?

Why did you bother coming here?

This Moderator has decided this is not a personal attack (and thus worthy of moderation) but notes an opportunity to be nicer has been missed.

 

[GGJaguar]

This versus that.

 

[fronobulax]

It's designed to be muffled and it's already a small bodied guitar.

I have made many decisions. I have been amused by hearing people who weren't in the room explain why the decisions were made. They are usually wrong as to the "why?". Your claim of intention is disturbing. Bracing can certainly muffle a top. My concern is the blanket claim that the bracing was chosen to muffle the top. I'd be more comfortable with a claim that muffling was a side effect of some other decision.

Specifically there is very little anecdotal evidence to support a hypothesis that Guild "dumbed down" low end models to drive customers to higher priced models. There are a lot of anecdotes that people who play the low end Guilds look to high end Guilds when they want to upgrade. There are also suspicions that when low end sales appear to cannibalize high end models, some specs change or models get dropped.

I bought my first Guild in 1972 so I have decades of watching how the company operates and being a fanboi. Guild is not a perfect company (or even always the maker of the best instruments) but some criticisms need to acknowledge history, corporate ethos and just what are good business practices for a successful company. (Deliberately making an inferior product is not one of those good practices).

Nevertheless I look forward to pictures and measurements that allow the bracing to be compared and hypotheses to be tested.

 

[West R Lee]

It's your time and your money but saying you are done with Guild after one bad experience, and with a new product at a low price point, is kind of like me saying all Texans are aholes and I am never going back there again just because one car with Texas plates chose to tailgate me while I was doing the speed limit in the right lane and the left lane was clear to pass.

I note that some of your subsequent comments seem to be about Guild's choices in design and execution. The typical consumer does not second guess the design choices of the manufacturer. They evaluate the product as is and buy, or not, rather than focus on what it could have been. If your expertise and experience is such that you could design and build a better instrument under the same price and material constraints I hope that next time you will make the effort to assess the design before you purchase, even if you have to restrict your search to products that you can inspect in hand, before purchase.

I certainly hope you have returned the unsatisfactory instrument for a refund.

Why are you picking on Texans Fro?

West

 

[rmz76]

I have made many decisions. I have been amused by hearing people who weren't in the room explain why the decisions were made. They are usually wrong as to the "why?". Your claim of intention is disturbing. Bracing can certainly muffle a top. My concern is the blanket claim that the bracing was chosen to muffle the top. I'd be more comfortable with a claim that muffling was a side effect of some other decision.

Specifically there is very little anecdotal evidence to support a hypothesis that Guild "dumbed down" low end models to drive customers to higher priced models. There are a lot of anecdotes that people who play the low end Guilds look to high end Guilds when they want to upgrade. There are also suspicions that when low end sales appear to cannibalize high end models, some specs change or models get dropped.

I bought my first Guild in 1972 so I have decades of watching how the company operates and being a fanboi. Guild is not a perfect company (or even always the maker of the best instruments) but some criticisms need to acknowledge history, corporate ethos and just what are good business practices for a successful company. (Deliberately making an inferior product is not one of those good practices).

Nevertheless I look forward to pictures and measurements that allow the bracing to be compared and hypotheses to be tested.

It is just speculation... I do not know that, it's possible the short fat bracing lingers from the old vintage M20 design and that the USA m20 also shares this. I'm really curious to know... Regardless of why that bracing technique was chosen, it is objectively a design choice which restricts the tops movement a lot more than more traditional bracing choices and so an intentional decision to not get the most volume and sustain out of the top. Given 2023 guitar assembly lines, we're seeing many other builders achieve more optimal movement even on their low entry level models.

The M120 is a bit of a challenge for guild as they build a USA model very similar and charge $900 for it. While it sounds offensive to even entertain the possibility that Guild may have intentionally gone with design decisions to muffle the tone of the import, it's very much in the realm of possibility and other builders have done similar things. Two great examples would be what Gibson has historically not allowed Epiphone to do with their Gibson inspired models. The new IBG has changed some of that. Also Taylor's decision to make some zero-cost-difference aesthetic changes to their 100 and 200 series just to distinguish them for the USA built lineup.... A thought experiment: Your a company the builds a value product line and a high-end product line and the foreign labor can get you 90% to the same quality as your USA built version of the product that needs to sell for $900 more to profit. Do you allow the value product to compete that close with your top-end product or do you intentionally put some compromises in, keeping it appealing by making sure things like the nut, fretwork, wood selection, etc.. are great for the review talking points, but make sure in tonal comparisons they don't sound too similar.

There was a comment early "why don't you take your knowledge and build a better guitar". I'm not a luthier, but I understand the core principles of their craft. I would consider myself a guitar tech as I can do setups, change pickups, polish and file frets even cut a nut. I think of myself as a guitar mechanic and I think you'll find meany a good auto mechanic who might not can build a car for you, but can objectively tell you certain makes and models to avoid.

For reference I found this old post from this form showing some of the different historic guild tone bar shapes for top bracing. The M120's bracing is very similar to the 1971 D-44's pictured top of the thread, they are just shorter. So maybe it is just based on historic spec.

Bracing on Guild dreads: 1971 - 1992 (several pics)...

I spent some time this weekend doing my semi-annual guitar cleaning and string swap on six of my dreads (I swapped strings on the G-37 in Oct, so decided it could wait). While the strings were off, I stuck my smaller camera into the body and snapped some pics of each to document the different...

letstalkguild.com

 

[fronobulax]

Why are you picking on Texans Fro?

West

I was not favorably impressed with the locals last time I drove there but I figured, unlike some other regions, there are enough kind hearted Texans on LTG that they would cut me slack if it really was seen as an insult.

 

[fronobulax]

The M120 is a bit of a challenge for guild as they build a USA model very similar and charge $900 for it.

I have not been able to find a new USA made M20 for under $1600. To the extent that your concern is based on "close" prices between similar models with different countries of origin then perhaps you might consider verifying that you are comparing prices on new, with warranty, instruments from an authorized dealer.

 

[adorshki]

It is just speculation... I do not know that, it's possible the short fat bracing lingers from the old vintage M20 design and that the USA m20 also shares this. I'm really curious to know... Regardless of why that bracing technique was chosen, it is objectively a design choice which restricts the tops movement a lot more than more traditional bracing choices and so an intentional decision to not get the most volume and sustain out of the top. Given 2023 guitar assembly lines, we're seeing many other builders achieve more optimal movement even on their low entry level models.

rmz, with apologies for my previous curt welcome, you are in fact correct about the importance of bracing in top design. It took me quite a while being here to realize that in fact Guild had (and apparently, for US builds, at least, still has) excellent bracing designs. I've said before it's their real "Secret Sauce".

In all that time I've never seen anything in Guild lit citing bracing size specs, only the pattern and whether standard, shaved, or scalloped, and even that only starting in the '80's, that I recall. I believe now it was because Guild modified bracing as needed as their build techniques changed. They were small enough to put a lot of hand-fitting into the assembly and experiment and incorporate changes on the fly, up through the close of Westerly, at least.

They've gone from "light builds" which would include the era the M20 was conceived, late '50's, to "heavy builds" from the mid '70's to late '80's, then started lightening up again. Design was evolutionary. If they wanted to change something in the middle of a model year they did. Still do.

Only in the late '90's have I see company lit addressing the importance of bracing specifically:

Now, re the gestation of the MIC Guilds: Former member Jay Pilzer wrote an article for Vintage Guitar detailing Fender's program of analyzing vintage Guild models for build and design details when seeking to revamp the line-up upon moving to Corona in '01 (Fender acquired Guild in Nov. '95 and sold them to Cordoba Music Group in 2014):
https://www.vintageguitar.com/21567/guild-in-the-post-fender-era/?utm_source=Vintage+Guitar%2C+Inc.+List&utm_campaign=77c212bf1f-VGA0013_07_2015_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_2310eb0f86-77c212bf1f-247921833&amp

So Fender was literally the first to "blueprint" the line-up. If my '04 Corona D40 is any indicator, they went for the "build like a tank" design philosophy on that one. Took 10 years to really open up, but I love it to death now.

What I find in retrospect to be suspiciously coincidental is the appearance of the MIC "Guild Acoustic Design" series in the Spring '04 Guild Price list. The verbiage accompanying their announcement stated they were based on "traditional Guild acoustic design philosophies", thus the series name.

Wonder where those designs came from? As time progressed we discovered the line was made by the "Grand Reward Education and Entertainment" instrument manufacturing complex in China. Fender eventually disclosed they owned the intellectual properties to the instruments made there, and even went so far as to buy the woods and ave them delivered to the factory to ensure their quality standards were met. They were not "mass production pieces" with Guild badges slapped on.

When CMG acquired Guild, they coincidentally already had manufacturing arrangements with GREE, and continued Guild's MIC line under the Cordoba arrangement as the "Westerly Collection". I don't know if it's literally the same line. Also, I don't think CMG has ever released bracing specs, either. But I was absent for about a year and may have missed something.

Hope that makes up for my earlier cold welcome, and perhaps gives you reason to re-think the brand.

 

[rmz76]

rmz, with apologies for my previous curt welcome, you are in fact correct about the importance of bracing in top design. It took me quite a while being here to realize that in fact Guild had (and apparently, for US builds, at least, still has) excellent bracing designs. I've said before it's their real "Secret Sauce".

In all that time I've never seen anything in Guild lit citing bracing size specs, only the pattern and whether standard, shaved, or scalloped, and even that only starting in the '80's, that I recall. I believe now it was because Guild modified bracing as needed as their build techniques changed. They were small enough to put a lot of hand-fitting into the assembly and experiment and incorporate changes on the fly, up through the close of Westerly, at least.

They've gone from "light builds" which would include the era the M20 was conceived, late '50's, to "heavy builds" from the mid '70's to late '80's, then started lightening up again. Design was evolutionary. If they wanted to change something in the middle of a model year they did. Still do.

Only in the late '90's have I see company lit addressing the importance of bracing specifically:

Now, re the gestation of the MIC Guilds: Former member Jay Pilzer wrote an article for Vintage Guitar detailing Fender's program of analyzing vintage Guild models for build and design details when seeking to revamp the line-up upon moving to Corona in '01 (Fender acquired Guild in Nov. '95 and sold them to Cordoba Music Group in 2014):
https://www.vintageguitar.com/21567/guild-in-the-post-fender-era/?utm_source=Vintage+Guitar%2C+Inc.+List&utm_campaign=77c212bf1f-VGA0013_07_2015_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_2310eb0f86-77c212bf1f-247921833&amp

So Fender was literally the first to "blueprint" the line-up. If my '04 Corona D40 is any indicator, they went for the "build like a tank" design philosophy on that one. Took 10 years to really open up, but I love it to death now.

What I find in retrospect to be suspiciously coincidental is the appearance of the MIC "Guild Acoustic Design" series in the Spring '04 Guild Price list. The verbiage accompanying their announcement stated they were based on "traditional Guild acoustic design philosophies", thus the series name.

Wonder where those designs came from? As time progressed we discovered the line as made by the "Grand Reward Education and Entertainment" instrument manufacturing complex in China. Fender eventually disclosed they owned the intellectual properties to the instruments made there, and even went so far as to buy the woods and ave them delivered to the factory to ensure their quality standards were met. They were not "mass production pieces" with Guild badges slapped on.

When CMG acquired Guild, they coincidentally already had manufacturing arrangements with GREE, and continued Guild's MIC line under the Cordoba arrangement as the "Westerly Collection". I don't know if it's literally the same line. Also, I don't think CMG has ever released bracing specs, either. But I was absent for about a year and may have missed something.

Hope that makes up for my earlier cold welcome, and perhaps gives you reason to re-think the brand.

Really interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing this. This is means the bracing in the m120 is based on the brands historic specs, which is also inline with photos and ends the short-lived-potential conspiracy that the design choice was intentional to distinguish it from the USA built M20. I would still love to see inside an M20, I highly doubt it's braced the same as the M120, but of course they aren't the same guitar.

This changes my opinion a bit, I respect Fender was trying to pay homage to the original designs.

In the late 1960s trough early 1980s several builders will adding more bracing mass to the top, Gibson perhaps the most notorious for their "overbuilt" designs. It was all about the $$$ and putting durability over tone. Of course that can be spun to the customer any number of ways, but a muffled tone the result and generally most players would say that's a degraded sound vs what could be.

The 1970s continue to be a dark era in USA built acoustic manufacturing, with Guild being one of the standout brands in that era more respected. This is what I've read, I was very young then, so no first hand experience other than playing several brand name guitars form the 1970s that just weren't good at all. The Guild m120 reminds me very much of the guitars from that era. The top could deliver more tone if Guild wanted it to... In the end it does just boil down to it's not a guitar for me. My expectations are higher than what this delivers tone-wise. Built quality wise Guild's attention to detail might be second to none. It it such an incredibly well built instrument to sound so truly god awful and that's why it's probably the most hated guitar I've ever come across.

Imagine if Ferrari partnered with a company in the US sand came up with a very well designed car and somehow managed to get so much attention to detail right, but one design choice added additional weight crippling all that it could be. That is the Guild m120. From all that's been shared, I assume Guild/Cordoba would just point out it's a nod to historic design and has many fans and they would be right on that but still the guitar could be more than it is I have nothing against Chinese built guitars. I own two Blueridge guitars that are fantastic instruments.

 

[adorshki]

Really interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing this. This is means the bracing in the m120 is based on the brands historic specs, which is also inline with photos and ends the short-lived-potential conspiracy that the design choice was intentional to distinguish it from the USA built M20. I would still love to see inside an M20, I highly doubt it's braced the same as the M120, but of course they aren't the same guitar.

You're welcome! Almost forgot, there's one more wrinkle here: Fender owned the Guild Acoustic Design series instruments independently of Guild Guitars. It may well be that the design intellectual properties of that series wasn't acquired by CMG, who acquired all brand properties of Guild Guitar. That arrangement may not have included the GAD series and would explain why warranty on those was fulfllled by Fender after the sale, while Cordoba launched their own MIC line even though the factory remained the same.
Don't know if that was ever divulged here, but Fender isn't likely to, and I'm one of the few here who have an academic interest in that history so suspect it's still "priviledged info" for CMG.

This changes my opinion a bit, I respect Fender was trying to pay homage to the original designs.
In the end it does just boil down to it's not a guitar for me. My expectations are higher than what this delivers tone-wise.

I can relate. I also now have better understanding of your knowledge of guitar construction and what truly sound "good" or not.

Built quality wise Guild's attention to detail might be second to none. It it such an incredibly well built instrument to sound so truly god awful and that's why it's probably the most hated guitar I've ever come across.

I get that too. And a good argument can be made that the original GAD line actually allowed Fender to "float" Guild through the great recession. Lotta new members started popping up with those in the late '00's and QC was always highly rated.
What was interesting was that a very high percentage of them realized "If their import sounds this good, what must the USA guitars be like?" And when they found out they generally agreed they were better subject of course to that old paradigm that you pay incrementally larger sums for incrementally smaller increases in quality.

But if your ears are fairly well educated, you understand the value of little details like an NCL finish, and hide glue construction, and set dovetail neck joints with the truss accessed at the headstock.

Imagine if Ferrari partnered with a company in the US sand came up with a very well designed car and somehow managed to get so much attention to detail right, but one design choice added additional weight crippling all that it could be. That is the Guild m120. From all that's been shared, I assume Guild/Cordoba would just point out it's a nod to historic design and has many fans and they would be right on that but still the guitar could be more than it is I have nothing against Chinese built guitars. I own two Blueridge guitars that are fantastic instruments.

You are aware of "Ford vs Ferrari", right?
(I'm a big fan of both marques, btw, so if anybody had to beat Ferrari, at least it was Ford, LOL!) And yeah a Ford-Ferrari sports car at the time likely would have showcased the weak points of both brands.