Guild M120 setup help. What driver to use for truss rod? Factory spec for action?

[adorshki]

One more qualifier occurred to me: As I understand it, the M20 was always intended to be a "student model". One of its largest markets in the beginning (early '60's) was school music programs (And likely music store student rentals, too?).

As such, a bit of durability in design may have been desirable in light of its likely fate at the hands of inexperienced first time players and rental life. What I find telling is your mention of the attention to build quality, and that's on the lowest rung model in the line-up. So now I'm willing to allow you may in fact have acquired a "dud". Otherwise, as you say, the sound's just not for you and kudos to you for allowing for that possibility as well.

The only set-up specs (action) I ever saw them publish btw was in '97, a blanket spec for how flattops left the factory, and all 3 of mine cam out of the box that way built between '96 and '04:

I loved that height, but it does leave plenty of room for lowering at the saddle. I run a few thousandths lower these days and also have silk and steel on one.

 

[rmz76]

I am editing my top post and happy to report that my Guild M120 has really opened up. I've NEVER experienced a guitar making such a 180 degree turn in such a short period of time... I still do not understand why the top seems over supported and the bracing decisions, but the guitar's tone really impresses me now... Thanks all who contributed information to this thread, you kept me from returning it and made me want to give it a little more time, I'm glad I did.

 

[rmz76]

Another update- So about a week from my 180 post, I'll go on to praise the m120 and Guild a bit more. Hope some future buyer who might experience the same initial negative sentiment I had might be inspired by my transition to hold on instead of doing a quick return... I'm going back and changing reviews, because the m120 is a really fantastic guitar... The note articulation and balance of volume up and down the fretboard is like no other guitar I've owned. The thing Guild really got right that's very rare on even the good import acoustics are fretwork and how the nut was cut. You can pay someone who knows what they are doing to correct these things, but it will cost you hundreds of dollars, sometimes. Having fretwork with completely level frets, no scratchy notes and smooth edges top and bottom and the nut properly cut at the factory are time consuming things you usually only see done properly on expensive guitars. I did have to file the saddle and adjust the truss rod to get the guitar playable, but I never hold that requirement against a builder. The saddle was very high, but thinking more about it, I could see Guild doing that on purpose in case someone is buying the m120 to play Slide on it.

Shaving a saddle is a very common part of a basic setup, for the guitar to ship with a high saddle is nothing compared to guitars that ship with a nut improperly cut or with sloppy fretwork. The high saddle is an acceptable out of the box feature that doesn't impact quality in my book. After dialing in the setup, the guitar is just amazing. The guitar never goes out of tune and it passes the intonation test on the 12th fretted/harmonic with ease. They put a lot of time into attention to detail. Yes, it has an annoying thick polyurethane finish that I will never make peace with I think the top is over braced, but it's voiced the way Guild wants this model to be voiced. It's been confirmed at this point, the USA built M20 does have more traditional bracing (taller, scalloped) so the two are voiced different for sure. It's not just the difference in finish type impacting tone, they are voiced differently. But the M120 is a great model and probably stands alone in its price range.

 

[kbraker]

My understanding is that often All mahogany guitars can take a bit of cajoling and time to open up, no matter the maker.

 

[rmz76]

My understanding is that often All mahogany guitars can take a bit of cajoling and time to open up, no matter the maker.

That has not been my experience with the Martin 000-15m. However, it certainly has with the Guild M120. It went from being a guitar I was on the fence about returning or selling and blaming Guild for non-optimal, over bracing to it being my couch guitar and the guitar I play the most... I do believe dialing in the setup, which on mine just meant sanding a bit off the saddle and truss-rod adjustments also played a big part in dialing in the best tone for this little guitar.

My research and thanks to some members here for sharing both in this thread and in the archives of this forum, it seems the short fat braces on the Westerly/foreign built m120 are actually more historically accurate to the vintage M20s of the 1960s than the modern USA Guild M20 is. As I've come to understand it, Ren Ferguson work on the USA line included him doing a bit of re-imagining, which people may not realize, but is also what he did for Gibson. The bracing pattern found in many of Gibson's acoustics, the "traditional handscalloped X bracing" is something Ren came up with that's not a historic copy of any specific Gibson era, but more a composite of what he found on historic copies and a bit of his own design.

The slightly longer, scalloped braces on the current production, USA built M20, which have been noted by many owners (especially those who've had an opportunity to compare the m120 to m20 side-by-side) seems to be more a Rene Ferguson & team contribution to the new USA lineup than an attempt to build a historic reproduction/reissue of the vintage M20. Indeed, the original Westerly M120 that had a light Satin finish, 1 11/16" nut width and the basic Guild logo inlay without the modern m120 decorative inlay work was really the last production model to be almost identical to spec of the vintage M20s. I've also read that prior to m120 version 1, Guild's foreign manufacturing (GAD/Westerly collection) did originally manufacture the M120 under the m20 brand... When Guild establishing the new USA lineup, they changed some of the Westerly models too and the M120 received a high gloss poly finish (no doubt to help distinguish it from the new USA M20), 1 3/4" nut width, a more decorative headstock and a hard gig bag instead of the hard case. They also distinguish "Solid African Mahagony" on the current/new M120 as the choice woods for top, back and sides as opposed to the original M120 spec just claiming "Mahagony", which could be Nato, Sapele or any near species depending on how the builder wants to classify it.

I find it interesting the USA M20 sounds a bit duller than the M120. It does have nice sustain and sweet tonal properties, but I also wonder if Ren or whatever luthier was assigned to help re-imagine the new M20 didn't just spend hours listening to Nick Drake albums, working through prototype after prototype trying to nail that Nick Drake tone as close as possible. I'm in the camp who believes Nick Drake did not actually record with an M20. The evidence is kind of split 50/50, but to my ears it doesn't sound like what I'm hearing listening to samples of other recorded vintage M20.

 

[Prince of Darkness]

I find it interesting the USA M20 sounds a bit duller than the M120. It does have nice sustain and sweet tonal properties, but I also wonder if Rene or whatever luthier was assigned to help re-imagine the new M20 didn't just spend hours listening to Nick Drake albums, working through prototype after prototype trying to nail that Nick Drake tone as close as possible. I'm in the camp who believes Nick Drake did not actually record with an M20. The evidence is kind of split 50/50, but to my ears it doesn't sound like what I'm hearing listening to samples of other recorded vintage M20.

From what I can gather, there is no evidence that Nick Drake actually played a Guild M20. The widespread belief that he did appears to have come from the cover of Bryter Layter, but that was not his guitar, it belonged to the cover photographer. It is generally reckoned that he played a Martin D-28 or a Levin dreadnought on the album

 

[MsLouLou]

Recently posted about my acquisition of a Guild M120, this Asian built "Westerly Collection" Guild has a very odd pocket for the truss rod. I have a normal hex set. A simple set like you can find at the local Walmart that works both SAE and Metric. I'm able to use this on all my guitars. But the full length of the long side of the hex wrench (which measures about 4.5") just goes all the way into the pocket without making contact with anything... It's as if there is no truss rod there or I need a much longer wrench to get to it.

My other question is around the action. From the factory, the saddle on this instrument is very high compared to other new purchases. I understand that getting action right at the factory can be expensive, but the more I play the guitar compared to my others and having taken measurements, I find what they did with this m120 is unacceptable. I would classify it as barely playable. beyond cowboy chords.

It can be fixed, and I will fix it, but my bigger question is why does GUILD care so little about the showroom experience of their instruments. I don't visit music stores often anymore, but decided to take a drive up to day to local Guitar Center. Outside the sub $200 entry level garbage bin, no acoustic guitar was as bad as my M120. They had no other Guild guitars in stock to compare to, but why Guild? Why? This did not all happen in transport either. The saddle is like 1/2 high. It's as if there was zero effort put into making the guitar playable on the showroom... I usually take a few months before giving an instrument a setup, just to figure out where I want to adjust it to, but this guitar is completely unplayable until I give it some work and that deep truss rod pocket has me worried it has no truss rod at all.

I know this reads mostly like a rant. I am very unhappy about the out of the box action, just because it's so far from where other vendors are in 2023 with that they deliver out of the box. Sure even Martin's and Gibson's high-end guitars need a setup often, but they are NOT this god awful and far off the mark. I respect guild less as a builder for having let this slip out, it's impossible every guitar comes this way.

Hi,

I know this is an older post, but I want to thank you - I thought I was losing my mind re: action / stock saddle. I have a vintage dreadnought that has lower action, and because the M-120 is my first concert guitar, and because I am a small person with small fingers, it would be a little easier to play and travel with.

My dad gave me my first guitar when I was six years old, so I’ve been playing for several decades. I never imagined I might struggle with bar chords again; unfortunately, I was wrong. I have the M-120 tuned down half a step and use a capo (ugh) to achieve standard tuning, or as close to standard tuning as I can get, just to make bar chords a little less destructive on my fingers.

I don’t trust myself to sand the saddle; I’d rather buy one that’s shorter. You said the stock is 1/2”, right? About how much did you sand yours down? Did you loosen the truss rod (apologies if this has been answered; I’m multitasking and don’t have the time right now to read all of the Q&A’s, though I will this evening)?

I like this little guitar and would love to play it more. Thanks a ton!

 

[davenumber2]

Hi,

I know this is an older post, but I want to thank you - I thought I was losing my mind re: action / stock saddle. I have a vintage dreadnought that has lower action, and because the M-120 is my first concert guitar, and because I am a small person with small fingers, it would be a little easier to play and travel with.

My dad gave me my first guitar when I was six years old, so I’ve been playing for several decades. I never imagined I might struggle with bar chords again; unfortunately, I was wrong. I have the M-120 tuned down half a step and use a capo (ugh) to achieve standard tuning, or as close to standard tuning as I can get, just to make bar chords a little less destructive on my fingers.

I don’t trust myself to sand the saddle; I’d rather buy one that’s shorter. You said the stock is 1/2”, right? About how much did you sand yours down? Did you loosen the truss rod (apologies if this has been answered; I’m multitasking and don’t have the time right now to read all of the Q&A’s, though I will this evening)?

I like this little guitar and would love to play it more. Thanks a ton!

Take it to a trusted tech for a setup or learn to do it yourself. It's not that hard. Plenty or resources online. If you don't want to learn or don't have the time, that's understandable. Some guys just want to play and that's fine. After a good setup it should play as easily as any other guitar assuming all is in good order structurally.