Guild Owned by Yamaha?

[chazmo]

So, is Yamaha Guitar Group part of Yamaha Music Japan? It doesn't look like it. It appears to be a (peer) subsidiary. That's remarkable, considering how much is part of Yamaha Music!

Any comparisons I've made of Bösendorfer with what's going on with Guild (CMG) are bunk, and I apologize. Scratch all that...

We will create new customer value by leveraging the domestic market and customer knowledge we have accumulated over the years, and by maximizing the synergies between Yamaha and the brands we handle, including Line 6 and Ampeg.

That's both scary and hopeful. Thanks for posting, Ralf. This confirms what we heard about Guild's customer service migrating to YGG's control. It feels like YGG is being set up to be a real hands-on overlord which, well, is scary. If I were part of CMG, I'd be very concerned. I guess we'll see.

 

[SFIV1967]

So, is Yamaha Guitar Group part of Yamaha Music Japan? It doesn't look like it. It appears to be a (peer) subsidiary. That's remarkable, considering how much is part of Yamaha Music!

It is all clearly explained in my previous posts #12 and #20 in the last 3 sections.

Yamaha Guitar Group, Inc. is a USA based company and a wholly owned subsidiary of Yamaha Corporation in Hamamatsu.

Yamaha Music Japan Co., Ltd. in Tokyo is also a wholly owned subsidiary of Yamaha Corporation in Hamamatsu. They conducts inventory sales of musical instruments and audio equipment in Japan only.

Yamaha Corporation of America in Buena Park, CA, is reponsible for all other instruments sales in USA but not YGG's business.

Responsible for Europe is Yamaha Music Europe GmbH in Rellingen, Germany but so far without CMG as CMG still has their own organizations for Europe in The Netherlands (I believe) and UK.

Group Companies (Worldwide) - About Us - Yamaha Corporation

www.yamaha.com

Ralf

 

[chazmo]

It is all clearly explained in my previous posts #12 and #20 in the last 3 sections.

Yamaha Guitar Group, Inc. is a USA based company and a wholly owned subsidiary of Yamaha Corporation in Hamamatsu.

Yamaha Music Japan Co., Ltd. in Tokyo is also a wholly owned subsidiary of Yamaha Corporation in Hamamatsu. They conducts inventory sales of musical instruments and audio equipment in Japan only.

Yamaha Corporation of America in Buena Park, CA, is reponsible for all other instruments sales in USA but not YGG's business.

Responsible for Europe is Yamaha Music Europe GmbH in Rellingen, Germany but so far without CMG as CMG still has their own organizations for Europe in The Netherlands (I believe) and UK.

Group Companies (Worldwide) - About Us - Yamaha Corporation

www.yamaha.com

Ralf

Not so clear to me, Ralf. But, like I said it seems that YGG and the whole Yamaha Music are separate subsidiary peers under Yamaha Corporation. In other words, Yamaha Music and Yamaha Guitar Group are completely separate entities, and what we've come to know of Yamaha Music is irrelevant in Guild's future.

 

[SFIV1967]

Not so clear to me, Ralf. But, like I said it seems that YGG and the whole Yamaha Music are separate subsidiary peers under Yamaha Corporation. In other words, Yamaha Music and Yamaha Guitar Group are completely separate entities, and what we've come to know of Yamaha Music is irrelevant in Guild's future.

Yes that is right, but there is no "whole Yamaha Music" as a mother company (as you seem to think).

All "Yamaha Music..." are only some country specific organizations in various areas of the world and all belong to Yamaha Corporation based in Hamamatsu.
Yamaha Corporation in Hamamatsu is the Yamaha music business!
And it shares the same Yamaha name with Yamaha Motor Co..

"Musical instrument maker Yamaha Corporation and motorcycle manufacturer Yamaha Motor both originate from the same company: Nippon Gakki Co., Ltd.

Nippon Gakki Co., Ltd. (日本楽器製造株式会社, Nihon Gakki Seizō Kabushiki gaisha, lit. 'Japan Musical Instrument Manufacture') was established in 1887 as a reed organ manufacturer by Torakusu Yamaha (山葉寅楠) in Hamamatsu, Shizuoka Prefecture and was incorporated on 12 October 1897.

On July 1, 1955, the motorcycle division at Nippon Gakki was spun off and founded as an independent company: Yamaha Motor.
Then in 1987, Nippon Gakki changed its name to Yamaha Corporation, which meant that there were now “two Yamahas.” "

From Piano Frames to Motorcycle Engines

Introducing the stories behind Yamaha Motor's technologies.

global.yamaha-motor.com

Ralf

 

[chazmo]

Yes that is right, but there is no "whole Yamaha Music" as a mother company (as you seem to think).

All "Yamaha Music..." are only some country specific organizations in various areas of the world and all belong to Yamaha Corporation based in Hamamatsu.
Yamaha Corporation in Hamamatsu is the Yamaha music business! And it shares the same Yamaha name with Yamaha Motor Co.. which used to be a subsidery of Yamaha Corporation in the past. If you are interested in their history read here:

From Piano Frames to Motorcycle Engines

Introducing the stories behind Yamaha Motor's technologies.

global.yamaha-motor.com

Ralf

Hmm.. What about all the zillions of other instruments that Yamaha makes in their own name... Synths, band instruments, you name it...

Maybe this isn't what you get when you look in Germany , but when I look this is what I get... https://usa.yamaha.com/products/index.html

I think that's where my questions lie, Ralf. Isn't Yamaha Music the owner of these all these instrument categories? Of course, I'm also talking about Yamaha's many musical acquisitions. The brands that are listed when you bring up Yamaha Music, in other words.

But, honestly, this business of Yamaha Music is off track from the point I was trying to make earlier... which is that YGG's ownership of Guild is hopeful but (IMO) scary. Yamaha Guitar Group will (IMO) take a heavy hand with Guild. Again, I can't decide if that'll be good or bad. Probably a very mixed bag.

 

[SFIV1967]

but when I look this is what I get... https://usa.yamaha.com/products/index.html
I think that's where my questions lie, Ralf. Isn't Yamaha Music the owner of these all these instrument categories?

The webpage you quoted is the local USA only webpage of "Yamaha Corporation of America" (YCA) in Buena Park, CA.
YCA have the musical instruments for USA distribution under them (but not YGG).

There is no "Yamaha Music" with such name as a parent company.

"Established in 1960 as Yamaha International Corporation, Yamaha Corporation of America (YCA) offers a large assortment of high-quality musical instruments and audio products to U.S. customers.
YCA is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Yamaha Corporation, Japan, and is one of the world’s largest global subsidiary companies."

Again, what you understand to be "Yamaha Music" is the Yamaha Corporation in Hamamatsu, Japan.

Any companies with the name "Yamaha Music" in them are only other local country organisations, examples: "Yamaha Music Latin America, S.A.", "Yamaha Musical do Brasil Ltda.", "Yamaha Music Europe GmbH", "Yamaha Music & Electronics Taiwan Co., Ltd."...

Ralf

 

[chazmo]

@SFIV1967 OK, "Yamaha Music Japan Co., Ltd." is the parent company that's traded on the Nikkei. It's the "Yamaha Corporate" parent as we know it. Yamaha brand instruments, as in band, synths, etc. are all part of Yamaha corporate, as I see it. Bösendorfer, Steinberg, Ampeg, Line 6, etc. are the subsidiaries of this company, among others.

Now, "Yamaha Guitar Group" is added as a relatively new, separate, subsidiary (to the other acquisitions) under Yamaha Corporate as well. So, what I'm saying is that YGG is a peer to the other acquisitions, Ralf. That's all. Whatever Cordoba (and Guild) are now under YGG, they are somewhere in the corporate heirarchy of YGG.

The "local" organizations are really not part of this discussion, although I'm very confused about what they are and what they mean. Do they have any direct organizational control of YGG or other Yamaha subsidiaries?

 

[merlin6666]

Yes that is right, but there is no "whole Yamaha Music" as a mother company (as you seem to think).

All "Yamaha Music..." are only some country specific organizations in various areas of the world and all belong to Yamaha Corporation based in Hamamatsu.
Yamaha Corporation in Hamamatsu is the Yamaha music business!
And it shares the same Yamaha name with Yamaha Motor Co..

"Musical instrument maker Yamaha Corporation and motorcycle manufacturer Yamaha Motor both originate from the same company: Nippon Gakki Co., Ltd.

Nippon Gakki Co., Ltd. (日本楽器製造株式会社, Nihon Gakki Seizō Kabushiki gaisha, lit. 'Japan Musical Instrument Manufacture') was established in 1887 as a reed organ manufacturer by Torakusu Yamaha (山葉寅楠) in Hamamatsu, Shizuoka Prefecture and was incorporated on 12 October 1897.

On July 1, 1955, the motorcycle division at Nippon Gakki was spun off and founded as an independent company: Yamaha Motor.
Then in 1987, Nippon Gakki changed its name to Yamaha Corporation, which meant that there were now “two Yamahas.” "

From Piano Frames to Motorcycle Engines

Introducing the stories behind Yamaha Motor's technologies.

global.yamaha-motor.com

Ralf

But do they not both use a tuning fork logo?

 

[SFIV1967]

@SFIV1967 OK, "Yamaha Music Japan Co., Ltd." is the parent company that's traded on the Nikkei. It's the "Yamaha Corporate" parent as we know it.

No and no!
I thought my posts #20 and #26 were crystal clear.
I said: "Any companies with the name "Yamaha Music" in them are only other local country organisations,"

So how do you assume now that "Yamaha Music Japan Co., Ltd." would be the parent company ?

"Yamaha Music Japan Co., Ltd." in Tokyo is only a country organization solely for the Japanese market! It is NOT the parent company !!!

The only parent company is Yamaha Corporation in Hamamatsu, Japan. There is no other parent company in the world!

But do they not both use a tuning fork logo?

Yes, as Yamaha Motor was a spin off from Nippon Gakki Co., Ltd., which itself later was renamed to Yamaha Corporation. (the musical instrument business.) The Japanese honor their ancestors!

Yamaha Motor Co., Ltd. logo vs. Yamaha Corporation logo:



You can read all about the Yamaha logo history here:

History of Logo - About Us - Yamaha Corporation

www.yamaha.com

Ralf

 

[TOSHI]

@SFIV1967 OK, "Yamaha Music Japan Co., Ltd." is the parent company that's traded on the Nikkei. It's the "Yamaha Corporate" parent as we know it. Yamaha brand instruments, as in band, synths, etc. are all part of Yamaha corporate, as I see it. Bösendorfer, Steinberg, Ampeg, Line 6, etc. are the subsidiaries of this company, among others.

Now, "Yamaha Guitar Group" is added as a relatively new, separate, subsidiary (to the other acquisitions) under Yamaha Corporate as well. So, what I'm saying is that YGG is a peer to the other acquisitions, Ralf. That's all. Whatever Cordoba (and Guild) are now under YGG, they are somewhere in the corporate heirarchy of YGG.

The "local" organizations are really not part of this discussion, although I'm very confused about what they are and what they mean. Do they have any direct organizational control of YGG or other Yamaha subsidiaries?

The head of the Yamaha Group is Yamaha Corporation. Cordoba was acquired by Yamaha Guitar Group (YGG, California, USA), a subsidiary of Yamaha Corporation. The acquisition will complement the classical guitar field, where Yamaha was weak, and is expected to have synergies in product development. We are also planning to produce high-end Yamaha brand models at Cordova's US factory (Oxnard?).

Yamaha made it clear to Bösendorfer that it wanted to preserve the sounds and traditional culture of Vienna, and guaranteed local production and employment as usual. Even though Bösendorfer became a subsidiary of Yamaha, the wise people at Yamaha did not interfere with traditional craftsmanship or piano making. However, traditional manufacturing methods will not eliminate the business deficit, nor will it be possible to raise the unit price of pianos excessively. However, making even the slightest change in the conventional manufacturing method means almost 100% fatal deterioration in quality, so if you do that, you will be looked down upon by musicians and music fans around the world. This will cause irreversible damage to the Yamaha brand itself. I think that Yamaha has accepted a certain amount of manufacturing losses to maintain the brand since they bought Bösendorfer for 2.5 billion yen based on the brand advertising value. One is a small-scale piano manufacturer with an annual production of 300 units entirely by hand and 180 employees, and the world's largest musical instrument manufacturer with an annual production of 100,000 units and 5,000 employees (20,000 on a consolidated basis). The scale of the company is so different from that of Yamaha, which is a comprehensive electronic equipment manufacturer, that Bösendorfer's standalone surpluses and deficits are only a small amount for Yamaha. Yamaha aimed to become profitable by adding sales options other than the piano itself, reinforcing its sales methods, and tying up its sales network with Yamaha pianos on a global scale. I think the same way of thinking applies to the Cordoba Group (Guild). I think if we use Yamaha's sales network and services, we will be able to preserve the Guild's tradition and sell more guitars than ever.

Furthermore, Yamaha is aiming for the pinnacle of pianos with both Yamaha and Bösendorfer. Although the grand pianos of both companies have the same shape, they are made differently and have completely different characteristics as pianos. Yamaha's pianos use the mainstream manufacturing method of bending thin wooden boards and pasting them together in multiple layers. Suitable for playing in large halls, where you want a concerto-like volume. Bösendorfer, on the other hand, carves a curved surface from a large block of wood, producing a slightly more delicate tone. Some people prefer this sound when used in small halls or chamber music. It's not that one is better or worse, it depends on the music you play, how you play it, and how you want to express the sound. I don't want to lose either of them, so I'm aiming for the top in each. I think the direction we are aiming for is the same for the Cordoba Group (Guild).

 

[chazmo]

No and no!
I thought my posts #20 and #26 were crystal clear.
I said: "Any companies with the name "Yamaha Music" in them are only other local country organisations,"

So how do you assume now that "Yamaha Music Japan Co., Ltd." would be the parent company ?

"Yamaha Music Japan Co., Ltd." in Tokyo is only a country organization solely for the Japanese market! It is NOT the parent company !!!

The only parent company is Yamaha Corporation in Hamamatsu, Japan. There is no other parent company in the world!

Ralf, OK, I understand what you're objecting to, but there's something more going on here which is what I was trying to address. Straight from Yamaha Corporation's web site, there are three business segments (Primary Businesses, shown below) that are part of Yamaha Corporation (Hamamatsu, traded on Nikkei, etc.). The musical instrument business is the one we are talking about here, and I thought that was named "Yamaha Music Japan Co., Ltd.," but I am wrong about that, as you said.. What I have been trying to say (poorly) is that the three business units may not have company names, but you can be sure they are run separately/independently within Yamaha.

All the Yamaha subsidiary companies (including those regional companies) are listed here. This seems to imply that Córdoba Music Group, LLC remains a real company, although we know that CMG is now part of Yamaha Guitar Group, Inc.. The list is either stale or we're not hearing the correct information about this inclusion of CMG in Yamaha Guitar Group, Inc.

Group Companies (Worldwide) - About Us - Yamaha Corporation

www.yamaha.com

Primary Businesses

• Musical instruments business segment :
  the manufacture and sales of pianos; digital musical instruments; wind, string, and percussion instruments; and other music-related activities.
• Audio equipment business segment :
  the manufacture and sales of audio products, professional audio equipment, information and telecommunication equipment, and certain other products.
• Others segment :
  electronic devices business, automobile interior wood components, factory automation (FA) equipment, golf products, recreation, and certain other lines of business.

 

[TOSHI]

Ralf, OK, I understand what you're objecting to, but there's something more going on here which is what I was trying to address. Straight from Yamaha Corporation's web site, there are three business segments (Primary Businesses, shown below) that are part of Yamaha Corporation (Hamamatsu, traded on Nikkei, etc.). The musical instrument business is the one we are talking about here, and I thought that was named "Yamaha Music Japan Co., Ltd.," but I am wrong about that, as you said.. What I have been trying to say (poorly) is that the three business units may not have company names, but you can be sure they are run separately/independently within Yamaha.

All the Yamaha subsidiary companies (including those regional companies) are listed here. This seems to imply that Córdoba Music Group, LLC remains a real company, although we know that CMG is now part of Yamaha Guitar Group, Inc.. The list is either stale or we're not hearing the correct information about this inclusion of CMG in Yamaha Guitar Group, Inc.

Group Companies (Worldwide) - About Us - Yamaha Corporation

www.yamaha.com

Primary Businesses

• Musical instruments business segment :
  the manufacture and sales of pianos; digital musical instruments; wind, string, and percussion instruments; and other music-related activities.
• Audio equipment business segment :
  the manufacture and sales of audio products, professional audio equipment, information and telecommunication equipment, and certain other products.
• Others segment :
  electronic devices business, automobile interior wood components, factory automation (FA) equipment, golf products, recreation, and certain other lines of business.

Yamaha has no intention of getting rid of Cordoba.
YGG acquired Cordoba shares,
Like Bösendorfer, Cordoba continues as a subsidiary.

 

[SFIV1967]

What I have been trying to say (poorly) is that the three business units may not have company names, but you can be sure they are run separately/independently within Yamaha.

O.k,, understood. Yes, they are "Business Units" but not companies.

The 3 managers at Yamaha Corporation in Hamamatsu responsible for the units are:

Seiichi Yamaguchi
Managing Executive Officer, Executive General Manager of Musical Instruments Business Unit and Senior General Manager of Digital Musical Instruments Division

Shinichi Takenaga
Operating Officer, Executive General Manager of Audio Products Business Unit and Senior General Manager of Professional Solutions Division

Nobukazu Toba
Operating Officer, Executive General Manager of IMC Business Unit and Senior General Manager of Electronic Devices Division


The Yamaha Annual Report 2023 has some very interesting comments regarding the Oxnard factories:

"Moreover, the acquisition of Cordoba Music Group bolsters the portfolio of intangible assets that will be imperative to the ongoing growth of our guitar business by allowing us to obtain this company’s development expertise and human capital. As Yamaha seeks to build upon the fundamental value of guitars, these intangible assets are expected to make substantial contributions to the improvement of the
overall quality of our guitars and to the ongoing growth of our market presence.
In this manner, Yamaha succeeded in securing a highly promising production base in the United States through its acquisition of Cordoba Music Group.
Mr. Abe [Seiji Abe, senior general manager of the Guitar Division] explains the prospects for this company, “The ‘made in the USA’ label will certainly contribute to the improvement of our brand image. In the future, we hope to use Cordoba Music Group as a production base to grow our guitar business while also examining the possibility of expanding our scale of production in the U.S. market.” "

"...Yamaha is making bold steps on its ever-shortening road toward raising its brand value to become the world’s No. 1 guitar brand. We are bolstering our lineup through product development focused on building upon the fundamental value of guitars and through the acquisition of new brands and insight.
At the same time, we are securing supplies of high-quality timber that are both reliable and sustainable. Through these efforts, we aim to accommodate customer needs and deliver levels of value that exceed customer expectations and thereby achieve sustainable growth while
accomplishing the targets of the mediumterm management plan."

Ralf

 

[chazmo]

O.k,, understood. Yes, they are "Business Units" but not companies.

The 3 managers at Yamaha Corporation in Hamamatsu responsible for the units are:

Seiichi Yamaguchi
Managing Executive Officer, Executive General Manager of Musical Instruments Business Unit and Senior General Manager of Digital Musical Instruments Division

Shinichi Takenaga
Operating Officer, Executive General Manager of Audio Products Business Unit and Senior General Manager of Professional Solutions Division

Nobukazu Toba
Operating Officer, Executive General Manager of IMC Business Unit and Senior General Manager of Electronic Devices Division


The Yamaha Annual Report 2023 has some very interesting comments regarding the Oxnard factories:

"Moreover, the acquisition of Cordoba Music Group bolsters the portfolio of intangible assets that will be imperative to the ongoing growth of our guitar business by allowing us to obtain this company’s development expertise and human capital. As Yamaha seeks to build upon the fundamental value of guitars, these intangible assets are expected to make substantial contributions to the improvement of the
overall quality of our guitars and to the ongoing growth of our market presence.
In this manner, Yamaha succeeded in securing a highly promising production base in the United States through its acquisition of Cordoba Music Group.
Mr. Abe [Seiji Abe, senior general manager of the Guitar Division] explains the prospects for this company, “The ‘made in the USA’ label will certainly contribute to the improvement of our brand image. In the future, we hope to use Cordoba Music Group as a production base to grow our guitar business while also examining the possibility of expanding our scale of production in the U.S. market.” "

"...Yamaha is making bold steps on its ever-shortening road toward raising its brand value to become the world’s No. 1 guitar brand. We are bolstering our lineup through product development focused on building upon the fundamental value of guitars and through the acquisition of new brands and insight.
At the same time, we are securing supplies of high-quality timber that are both reliable and sustainable. Through these efforts, we aim to accommodate customer needs and deliver levels of value that exceed customer expectations and thereby achieve sustainable growth while
accomplishing the targets of the mediumterm management plan."

Ralf

What's very scary about all that, Ralf, is that they didn't mention Guild!!!!!!

 

[chazmo]

Yamaha has no intention of getting rid of Cordoba.
YGG acquired Cordoba shares,
Like Bösendorfer, Cordoba continues as a subsidiary.

Yeah, Toshi... But what about Guild? The deeper we dig into this, the more I'm concerned about Guild's future.

 

[SFIV1967]

What's very scary about all that, Ralf, is that they didn't mention Guild!!!!!!

Guild and Cordoba and DeArmond and HumiCase are all part of CMG !
So when they talk about CMG, Guild is included! Nothing to worry about in my opinion. And didn't you read the press release about the start for Guild repair and support?

Also in the annual report you can read for instance:
"Cordoba Music Group develops four brands, and the Cordoba brand, which shares its name with this company, boasts the No. 1 share in the U.S. market for classic guitars as well as a solid position in the ukulele market. Meanwhile, its long-standing Guild guitar brand shaped an era of guitars, and has strong support for users involved in the country music genre in the United States, a market that has been hard for foreign brands like Yamaha to penetrate. Incorporating these brands into Yamaha’s lineup is anticipated to enable us to cater to the needs of a wider range of guitar players."

So clearly CMG is responsible developing Guild further! Guild is and continues to be a brand of CMG.

Ralf

 

[chazmo]

I did, Ralf. But, here's what I see. Yamaha wants to improve their classical line and they want CMG's presence in Oxnard. You know what happened to New Hartford when Fender said F** you to Ovation and put Guild in there... You don't see that? I fear the death of US production of Guilds in the near future let by aggressive managers in Yamaha Guitar Group subsidiary.

Structurally, using the Bösendorfer thing as an example of what to expect (as I did) is bunk. Yamaha made them a wholly-owned subsidiary. Here, Guild is a brand in a portfolio of CMG, which itself is now a (whatever-it-is) within Yamaha Guitar Group subsidiary... To me, this is not good.

 

[SFIV1967]

I fear the death of US production of Guilds in the near future let by aggressive managers in Yamaha Guitar Group subsidiary.

I could see exactly the opposite. I could see increased production of high end Guild models made in USA (both acoustic and electric).
Destroying Guild and just producing "Yamaha" branded guitars in Oxnard would not increase their market share and would bring no value to Yamaha.

Ralf

 

[chazmo]

I could see exactly the opposite. I could see increased production of high end Guild models made in USA (both acoustic and electric).
Destroying Guild and just producing "Yamaha" branded guitars in Oxnard would not increase their market share and would bring no value to Yamaha.

Ralf

I certainly hope you're right, Ralf!!!! If they look at this strictly as a profit/loss equation, I fear real trouble down the road for Guild.

 

[HeyMikey]

There is way more value to Yahama to keep Guild separate. Economies of scale and cross-selling of both brands into new markets for example. There is cross over, but the individual brands do appeal to slightly different guitar buyers, and increases the overall sales potential. This helps ensure more sales go to the uber “Yamaha” rather than competitors.