just got back from Frankfurt Musik messe and....

[killdeer43]

Why no prototypes for the new guitars at namm or musikmesse ?

Just to veer a bit and offer a WELCOME TO LTG while asking, are you Damon Davis? :friendly_wink:

Curious Joe

 

[briarbeavis01]

Perhaps I am too much of a rational literalist to post on the internet but if Fender killed Guild then Guild should be dead today and should have started smelling funny in the late 1990's. I don't think Guild is dead today and I don't think it was dead during the New Hartford years and it can be debated that some of Westerly's finest production was produced under Fender stewardship. Once the production line at Oxnard starts producing guitars I going to have a hard time understanding what "dead" means if Guild is dead.

I agree that Fender made some mistakes managing the brand and it is easy to imagine one or two more missteps that would have made Guild just another name that Fender owned but had no product, but that didn't happen.

I agree with fronobulax. Guild is not dead. I don't see the confusion I'm reading about either. The Westerly Collection is homage to the Westerly Guilds. Any store you purchase a guitar from should tell a person that this guitar is made in China and is not a USA Westerly. And for anybody interested in the difference between the Chinese and USA made Guilds needs to simply read LTG. Same goes for e-bay sellers.

 

[guildman63]

From what I read, the way to get something done in California is to put your proposition on the ballot. Maybe they'll try that next time around. It's probably faster!

Actually, the way to get something done in California is to grease somebody's palm, get in tight with San Fran Nan, or both. :highly_amused: :greedy_dollars: :disgust:

 

[dreamics]

There's a lot to be said for being able to reassure a customer a product will not fail on them just by telling them it's made by a maker with a universally recognized and respected reputation.
THAT's the image Cordoba must achieve if they want to survive, but I guess that's kind of a pedantic observation at this poiint.

Totally with you on this.
Now, thinking about all this, reading all these really interesting points of view here, at the end of the day the ONE thing I don't like at all is the absence of a MIC mention one the label of this future collection... if they choose to do it like this. Why? Because it is what one does when there is no more production going on in the country of origin. Then of course one doesn't shout all around "our products are now made in China, Taiwan or whatever", and of course it is a good way to do it from a marketing point of view. Look at the Grover brand. On their packagings you have their address in Cleveland, Ohio but no trace of a "Made in ..." Informed people know this means "made somewhere in Asia", but not everybody knows, and even those who know can pretend they don't. It's not written anywhere. But a (recent) Grover Rotomatic is a Grover Rotomatic, there is nothing to be confused about.

But if some part of the production still goes on in the USA, this is confusing. And confusion is not good.

As I said, the first Guild I bought a few years ago was a GAD25. I had few information about Guild at that time (and also wrong information), but still I had some image of the brand. A shadow of the "real" Guild brand, but still some real part of this image had managed its way through me. I knew it was a western brand, I knew and liked the looks, and I had Nick Drake and Tim Buckley in mind. I bought this GAD25 in full knowledge that it was made in China, and I knew it was the reason for the cheaper price compared to other Guild guitars I couldn't afford. Knowing it, I got myself a stunningly good instrument for the price I paid, great sound and extremely well built. But no confusion, is the important thing to me here. I would have hated to discover later it was made in China.

 

[SFIV1967]

...at the end of the day the ONE thing I don't like at all is the absence of a MIC mention...

We don't know that yet. I was simply refering to that view of a partial label and didn't see any indication of the "Handcrafted in China" on it.
Mind those were "prototypes" for Musikmesse, so the label is maybe not the final selling label.
The little top line under the Guild G shield seems to read "Made to be played since 1953".
The middle reads "The Westerly Collection"
The bottom line is just the model number, also no serial number on the label (I'd assume the S/N is still on the inside neck block, as the number on the GAD label was a meaningless production code anyway)
The old GAD label showed a big visible "Handcrafted in China" around the bottom, see right picture as example.
The Newark St. label shows "Handcrafted in Korea". So they are clear.

Ralf

 

[Rayk]

Wonder what it would take for Guild to buy back the company? Employee owned and or stock options for all you die hard fans maybe me to . I'm new so I'm seeping in from the cracks LOL feeding off your experiences and knowledge.

 

[fronobulax]

According to my reading of this Guild would be violating US law by importing guitars from China that did not indicate the country of origin on the label. So I think the speculation about the lack of such marking is incorrect and based on prototypes and not production labels or is based on instruments that will NOT be legally imported into the US.

The low key comments about the origin of The Westerly Collection make me wonder about Cordoba's experience importing Cordoba branded guitars. It is quite possible that the market for Cordobas is not as sensitive to country of origin as Guild owners, and possibly would be owners, are and so the Cordoba strategy is based on experience with their other guitar line.

 

[fronobulax]

Wonder what it would take for Guild to buy back the company? Employee owned and or stock options for all you die hard fans maybe me to . I'm new so I'm seeping in from the cracks LOL feeding off your experiences and knowledge.

There is no problem that Guild has today that is going to be improved by employee ownership. I am also not aware of any truly bonehead moves by management that make employee ownership a potential corrective or improvement. There is also a lot of evidence out there that people who buy stock in a company solely because they like and use the company's product rarely get a good return on their financial investment. I'l make a distinction between an employee owned company and one where the employees have an ownership stake and I personally never want to work for one of the former again. I'm OK with ownership stakes so long as they are valued at zero when determining compensation in comparison to the local market. I'm cynical but I worked for IT companies during the dot com boom and bust and still have not recovered

But to get slightly back on topic, Cordoba is doing pretty well as a steward of the Guild brand and I expect a year from now we will be talking about how much better Guild is doing under CMG ownership than FMIC ownership.

 

[SFIV1967]

...the Cordoba strategy is based on experience with their other guitar line.

Just to answer this: The Oxnard made Cordoba classical guitars proudly show "Handcrafted in Oxnard, CA": http://www.xguitars.com/prodimages/...on-spruce-top-classical-guitar-label-1600.jpg
The Made in Spain Cordoba guitars show "Hecho a mano Espana": http://www.xguitars.com/prodimages/...solista-cedar-classical-guitar-label-1600.jpg
The Made in China Cordoba guitar surprisingly show no country of manufacture: http://www.xguitars.com/prodimages/...ba-c12-spruce-classical-guitar-label-1600.jpg and another one: http://www.xguitars.com/prodimages/...doba-c7-cedar-classical-guitar-label-1600.jpg
All pictures are from actual guitars as offered by a shop in Asheville/NC in the US.
Ralf

 

[dreamics]

According to my reading of this Guild would be violating US law by importing guitars from China that did not indicate the country of origin on the label. So I think the speculation about the lack of such marking is incorrect and based on prototypes and not production labels or is based on instruments that will NOT be legally imported into the US.

As far as I know this is not (yet) the case in Europe for imported products, therefore my slight concern on the subject. But you guys are right, this is pure speculation anyway at this point. And I hope too that CMG will manage this transition well!
(Actually our only serious problem here in Europe with American guitars is the USD/EUR exchange rate !:friendly_wink

 

[fronobulax]

Just to answer this: The Oxnard made Cordoba classical guitars proudly show "Handcrafted in Oxnard, CA": http://www.xguitars.com/prodimages/...on-spruce-top-classical-guitar-label-1600.jpg
The Made in Spain Cordoba guitars show "Hecho a mano Espana": http://www.xguitars.com/prodimages/...solista-cedar-classical-guitar-label-1600.jpg
The Made in China Cordoba guitar surprisingly show no country of manufacture: http://www.xguitars.com/prodimages/...ba-c12-spruce-classical-guitar-label-1600.jpg and another one: http://www.xguitars.com/prodimages/...doba-c7-cedar-classical-guitar-label-1600.jpg
All pictures are from actual guitars as offered by a shop in Asheville/NC in the US.
Ralf

That last point is very interesting. It makes me wonder whether Cordoba and I have different understandings of the Customs and Border Protection labeling requirements cited above (in which case Cordoba has more lawyers than I do so go with their answer) or whether they are marking in some way other than the label, which is allowed.

 

[adorshki]

The liabilities included warranties for Guild branded product produced under FMIC stewardship

Thank you, I hadn't seen that specifically spelled out before now, I'd only seen it for New Hartford product.

 

[adorshki]

According to my reading of this Guild would be violating US law by importing guitars from China that did not indicate the country of origin on the label. So I think the speculation about the lack of such marking is incorrect and based on prototypes and not production labels or is based on instruments that will NOT be legally imported into the US.

THAT's what I was thinking but then I couldn't find the corroborating evidence.
I was looking at things like the Buy American Act and similar legislation and later trade agreements covering imported material.
I was a little surprised that I couldn't find a piece of legislation (which CBP enforces, not creates) stating anything that can be labelled must be labeled, although I found examples of specific categories of goods (textiles) tht must be labelled, and how to calculate content percentages to satisfy the "Made in USA" definitions.
I still suspect it will be found in something like an obscure section of legislation covering importation of finished goods made of wood.
What I do see are quite a few allowable exceptions to the CoO marking requirements and it might be possible Cordoba's been accustomed to using one for their MiC product.
But I'd still be a little surprised. I more strongly suspect those guitars might be marked elsewhere on the instrument if not the label, as you suggest.


Getting labels printed with the various countries of origin could be accomplished overnight from the petty cash drawer compared to other costs and lead times of manufacture.

 

[dapmdave]

Could it be somewhere else besides the label?

 

[Westerly Wood]

Could it be somewhere else besides the label?

I think you will know when you touch/see the poly coat.

 

[dapmdave]

I think you will know when you touch/see the poly coat.

WW, I was asking about "Made in China" apparently absent on the labels. I'm sure many of us could tell the difference without looking, but lately there are some very nice guitars being made in China, Korea, and other Pac-rim countries.

 

[Westerly Wood]

WW, I was asking about "Made in China" apparently absent on the labels. I'm sure many of us could tell the difference without looking, but lately there are some very nice guitars being made in China, Korea, and other Pac-rim countries.

Sorry Dave, I was joking...and I know that Poly coat does not always mean overseas, as Taylor applies poly on their guitars.

That being said, it is interesting Cordoba seems to have some label inconsistencies as well .

I am sure it will all work out. Looking forward to seeing the first M and D20s come out of Oxnard. I have owned several MIC acoustics over the years, and still have one. It is the last MIC guitar I will buy, the coat is just too thick. But perfect for my 5 year old

As way leads on to way, I have to retract my post on this thread that I will buy an M20. I just have so much going on now with the young kids that even a 1400 M20 is just too steep for me. I will not be buying a new Guild. As a matter of fact, the next new Guild I buy will most likely be long after Guild changes hands again.

Me and the BR for years to come.

 

[adorshki]

Could it be somewhere else besides the label?

Dave I know my posts get a little wordy, but yeah, that's what I (and Frono) suspect. That would certainly be legal.

Another possible exception is if it's marked on the packaging. That's one of those exceptions I found, unless it IS required to be on the instrument by as-yet-undiscovered (by us) law.
Oops, sorry, gettin' wordy again. :dejection::redface-new:

 

[adorshki]

As a matter of fact, the next new Guild I buy will most likely be long after Guild changes hands again.
Me and the BR for years to come.

Didja see that F5ce NT over in FS/FT? :biggrin-new:

 

[Westerly Wood]

Didja see that F5ce NT over in FS/FT? :biggrin-new:

where? I am looking and don't see it...