Not so fast...we have a problem with my M-20...unbelievable!

[dreadnut]

Of course he's gonna say it was like that when you brought it to him, or that the previous owner covered it up with laquer and it didn't become evident until he started working on it. "Before" photos would be helpful. Wishing you the best of luck with this.

 

[Kitarkus]

Of course he's gonna say it was like that when you brought it to him, or that the previous owner covered it up with laquer and it didn't become evident until he started working on it. "Before" photos would be helpful. Wishing you the best of luck with this.

I've posted some before photos here on this thread...they are high res and can be zoomed. While they are not direct line-of-site photos of the chunked portion of the neck heel....they certainly offer a glimpse of the "before". Additionally, it would have been physically difficult to remove the neck had the heel been in pieces prior to the reset....and he certainly would have charged me for the structural and cosmetic restoration that were necessary to piece it back together. I'd by lying if I told you that it wasn't in the front of my mind over the entire Holiday. I'm pissed off. I'll bet you big money this luthier was thinking about it over the entire Holiday as well.

The guitar might be a good "player" now.....but I've put serious money into this guitar far beyond what a 1968 M-20 "player" should cost. Any credible guitar repair shop...in a neck reset catastrophe situation....would stop all repairs and call the Owner to discuss a plan to move forward. I was not afforded the opportunity to discuss the future of MY guitar. Not only that...I have no idea what this guy exactly did....what materials he used...how exactly the neck was fractured etc. etc. He tried to hide the entire catastrophe from me. He just bought himself an expensive guitar or a whole lot of trouble.

 

[chazmo]

It's sad, Kit, but you gotta' get it right in your own mind. I don't think you're gonna' win any small claims battles, but if that's what you want to do you should. We can just (happily) post the name of this luthier, if you like, as someone to avoid for all future work. The fact that he didn't tell you about the break is maddening and makes my blood boil too, but you're going to have to decide what this is worth to you.

 

[Kitarkus]

It's sad, Kit, but you gotta' get it right in your own mind. I don't think you're gonna' win any small claims battles, but if that's what you want to do you should. We can just (happily) post the name of this luthier, if you like, as someone to avoid for all future work. The fact that he didn't tell you about the break is maddening and makes my blood boil too, but you're going to have to decide what this is worth to you.

Well...I'm not a judge...but it seems that there is an obvious tangible loss here and that I have an abundance of evidence. In due time should this 'repair person' continue to not return my emails/calls to discuss this matter further resulting in my satisfaction...I will be posting his business name, name, and contacting anyone/everyone that he does business with to be certain that they know what they could expect from him. Before I go that route...I intend to give him the time to discuss the matter with me. If not...small claims it is...I'm nearly ready to go in front of a judge today. Money is a part of this...but a small part. He gave me a lot to think about over the Christmas holiday...and I intend to give him a lot to think about between the time I file a law-suit and the time that we meet in court.

Funny thing I found...this "Martin Authorized Repair Center".....his business filing expired in Missouri in 2015 and has not been renewed. He has sought no BBB accreditation. He obviously scrapes by on his Martin credibility, word of mouth, and due to the lack of more qualified luthiers in this area. If he makes no attempt with me to right this wrong and if I am unable to get satisfaction in court....I'm going to work on all three (1) Martin, (2) credibility, and (3) word of mouth. Perhaps I will save someone else some aggravation or losses in the future.

 

[The Retro Rocker]

You have a strong case! You can win in small claims court.
Check with your state to see the limits of what you can sue for in small claims.
The before pics, especially the last ones you posted, are good!
Getting the original ad, the sellers statements, the time-stamps you have, all excellent.
Get a professional valuation on the guitar as it stands now.
Prepare your case with all photos, evidence, etc. (getting all your ducks in a row).
Tell him you plan to go forward and show him some of what you have.
Then tell him what you want to "make this go away". Do not listen to counter-offers.
Do not negotiate. Stand firm and let him know you are prepared to go all the way no matter how long it takes.

Schmucks like this should not be in business! Period.

 

[bobouz]

Schmucks like this should not be in business! Period.

Totally agree.

He's cutting corners wherever he can, and now clearly at the expense of his customers.

Folks like this need to be held accountable for their actions, to whatever extent possible.

 

[Kitarkus]

Totally agree.

He's cutting corners wherever he can, and now clearly at the expense of his customers.

Folks like this need to be held accountable for their actions, to whatever extent possible.

I'm taking it all the way for these very reasons. I feel that I have a much stronger case than Chazmo believes. Thanks to this forum....I took copious photos prior to dropping it off for repairs....on the same day...and the photos contain 'created on date' embedded in the file properties. Methinks the judge will have little doubts that it is a broken neck....and when it was broken. After all...how could I have broken this neck....and then masked it so skillfully?....coated in stain and satin nitro....blended....to the degree that it looks highly presentable in person....and at a newly desirable neck angle....while only appearing dreadfully broken/repaired with a flash and macro lens.

I suppose some others (nobody here of course) may try to pass this off on Ebay or Reverb for a lot of money....but I'm not sticking someone else with my problem. The problem is between the repair person and myself.

 

[PittPastor]

One thing I would do is position the guitar exactly as it was in the "before" photos and retake them all.

That way a "reasonable person" can look at the before and after and come to the conclusion that the break happened at the Luthier's.

If you show me a pic from a different angle and with different lighting, I might conclude that the break could have been there, but the lighting is more precise in the new pics. Make sure that comparing apples to apples shows the damage wasn't there before.

If this goes somewhere beyond the Luthier, you will need to have a "reasonable person," who views things agree with you based on "the preponderance of the evidence".

Also write letters, and emails. After every phone call with him, write down what the result was in an email or a letter and send it to him. Keep a log of every time you have called and left a message. Begin saving everything. Prepare to have to present this to someone who knows nothing of Guild or Guitars. If you can convince a relative stranger, your case is strong.

 

[GuildFS4612CE]

Remember: winning...and collecting...are two different things...most small claims courts do not assist with collections...most attorneys, even after winning your case, do not do collections...they simply refer you to yet another attorney...who takes yet another cut of the proceeds...with no guarantees...it's a lot of work and you may still end up with nothing...he can easily file bankruptcy...he may not have any accessible assets...your description of the state of his business indicates he's in trouble...trying to personally get him to at least refund what you've paid him might be your best chance...of course, it's up to you...good luck.

 

[Kitarkus]

He ain't going to declare bankruptcy over $1500...and if he does...so be it.

Before the repair closeup same angle...taken on 12/07/2017

After the Repair...attempt at same photo location/angle...taken moments ago 12/26/17

or another post repair try at same angle taken today 12/26/17

I had taken the first original pre-repair photos at about 9:30 or 10:AM and thus had some daylight.....I'll try that again tomorrow with the same time/light....as it is dark outside now.

 

[PittPastor]

You can also file a claim yourself. It's not as hard as it sounds. Many places will even have clerks who can sort of assist you. Google your state's for "Pro Se".

Before I would do any of that, though, I would hire an attorney to send a letter (assuming you get nowhere with just approaching him and asking him to make it right.) It's amazing the effect an attorney's letter head has on people who think you might not be serious.

I am not an attorney. My guess is that you will not be able to recoup the full amount of the guitar. But, if you can get it appraised and show a value drop, he would probably be liable for the difference. Again, I am not an attorney. But I have seen things like this up close (and way too) personal. Usually a court will try for "fair" which means they hardly ever give you everything you are asking for.

Also, did you sign any paperwork before handing the guitar over? If so, check to see if he has language in there stating that he is not liable for damage to used equipment.

 

[Kitarkus]

The only language on any of the 3 pieces of documentation that I obtained from him (1) claim ticket (2) repair tag and (3) paid receipt is: The claim check states "no merchandise delivered without this check. Not responsible for goods left over 30 days nor for loss by fire or theft". On the back it says "After the SALE it's the SERVICE that counts!".

I have a couple of attorney friends who would be happy to 'write a letter' for me if so desired. I see no reason to go that route. This is a clean and simple small claims court case. It is easy to file with the court clerk. I am loaded with evidence...most principally the guitar itself. It would take a miracle imo to educate a judge as to what a neck reset involves and have it result in judge determining that I had brought the guitar in for repair(s) with a broken neck prior to the reset. The itemized repair list DOES NOT include the massive repair and cosmetic work which has clearly/obviously been done to cover up a broken neck heel. What?....I was charged $125 to stabilize the almost undetectable hairline crack at the bottom/body at end block around the strap peg hole.....but no charge for the massive cracks at the neck heel? Even if for some reason my photos don't suffice in proving that the neck hadn't been broken at the time of my drop off....why would the repair shop have so graciously repaired the extensive neck heel cracks for free?

You can also file a claim yourself. It's not as hard as it sounds. Many places will even have clerks who can sort of assist you. Google your state's for "Pro Se".

Before I would do any of that, though, I would hire an attorney to send a letter (assuming you get nowhere with just approaching him and asking him to make it right.) It's amazing the effect an attorney's letter head has on people who think you might not be serious.

I am not an attorney. My guess is that you will not be able to recoup the full amount of the guitar. But, if you can get it appraised and show a value drop, he would probably be liable for the difference. Again, I am not an attorney. But I have seen things like this up close (and way too) personal. Usually a court will try for "fair" which means they hardly ever give you everything you are asking for.

Also, did you sign any paperwork before handing the guitar over? If so, check to see if he has language in there stating that he is not liable for damage to used equipment.

 

[Kitarkus]

Alas I received my 2018 Vintage Guitar Price Guide today. In it...it proclaims the M-20 ex low $1250 and ex high $1650. More interestingly is pg. 16 "Using the Guide" where it states:

"a poorly executed neck repair or significant body repair can mean a 50% reduction in a guitar's value".

Of course...I would like to find a fleet of 1960's M-20's in excellent low condition for $1250 each and buy them all.

 

[jedzep]

Again, I feel for you suffering this kind of roller coaster ride from joy to disbelief, disappointment to outrage. It serves as a lesson that there is a 'first moment' in situations when it's easier to accept responsibility for a f'up and pay the cost while preserving your ethics and the relationship. Your guy missed that moment for whatever reason, panic, deception or some of each, but it can still come back to that moment if he can grasp it. Backing him into a corner might be a last resort but if you can stay with the fairness of it he might come around and keep some pride.

Best case scenario? You get $ restitution, a nice re-repair of the break, and still love the guitar that now carries a story with it.

 

[Kitarkus]

Again, I feel for you suffering this kind of roller coaster ride from joy to disbelief, disappointment to outrage. It serves as a lesson that there is a 'first moment' in situations when it's easier to accept responsibility for a f'up and pay the cost while preserving your ethics and the relationship. Your guy missed that moment for whatever reason, panic, deception or some of each, but it can still come back to that moment if he can grasp it. Backing him into a corner might be a last resort but if you can stay with the fairness of it he might come around and keep some pride.

Best case scenario? You get $ restitution, a nice re-repair of the break, and still love the guitar that now carries a story with it.

I like your style Jedzep. You've read me like a book. I'm looking forward to giving him an opportunity for redemption...it'll be my first move. He'll have to return my email or phone call(s) in order to get started If things doesn't go as desired here in the next few days....well there is a plan for that too.

 

[PittPastor]

I hope you don't misunderstand me. I completely believe you, and I think this should be a slam dunk sort of thing if you need to pursue it further. What makes me nervous is A) He hid the repair in the first place and B) As of yet you haven't heard from him. Of course, it is the holidays. Hopefully this will resolve itself peaceably. Court, hopefully, is not necessary.

In the immortal words of Clarence Darrow: "There is no such thing as justice - in or out of courtroom."

 

[Kitarkus]

I hope you don't misunderstand me. I completely believe you, and I think this should be a slam dunk sort of thing if you need to pursue it further. What makes me nervous is A) He hid the repair in the first place and B) As of yet you haven't heard from him. Of course, it is the holidays. Hopefully this will resolve itself peaceably. Court, hopefully, is not necessary.

In the immortal words of Clarence Darrow: "There is no such thing as justice - in or out of courtroom."

I understand and I thank you for your words/time. I also agree...justice often goes un-served. I too hope for a peaceful and mutually agreeable resolution. His lack of being forthright at the time of break...and lack of response to me thus far is cause for concern....thus the planning for worst case scenario. I'm a generally easy going guy...and I have never sued or been sued in my life. Court is a last scenario....and a seemingly likely one in this scenario. Unless he hasn't checked his messages or emails since last Friday...he is ignoring me. I am a small business owner....and I cannot remember going more than a full day without checking my business. It may seem that I am jumping the gun...I'm not...I'm just placing my ducks in a row and straightening them up.

 

[PittPastor]

I hear ya. What a horrible thing to happen over the holidays. Hopin' it doesn't come to court action... but yeah... I hear you... Not looking good.

 

[davismanLV]

I think everyone is thinking an injustice was done and that you have a case to answer. Whether that case will gain you money or recompense is yet to be seen. What's happening now is you hashing and rehashing old facts and material. I think you've made your case. Go for it and let us know whether you get any satisfaction. I don't see the point in discussing this any more until something changes. We're (or you're) rehashing old rope here. I get it. I understand it. Go for it. Let us know what happens. :encouragement:

 

[Walter Broes]

how does the guitar play in the meantime?