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[fronobulax]

Several folks have expressed angst because a new Guild no longer occupies the same price/performance/value location in the market that it did 10 or more years ago. That is just a fact of life, IMO, and not necessarily a rational reason for doing anything, or not, today

I think this is the only possible unfortunate slant on this thread that might result from some posts from the "concerned" (such as myself) in that our tone may be misread as angst. Honestly, I don't see ANY of the detractors as angst-ridden at all. Being bummed out, concerned or even indifferent about the new Guild offerings is completely different. We all get what Guild's trying to do on some level, but some of us have more trepidations about the route they've chosen.

FWIW, I still view the Civic as a ridiculously well priced & reliable small/medium sized car that it's been at least since the 80's.

I confess to often reading angst into internet posts where it was not intended so I will apologize for misreading things and find a pill and chill :wink:

Two Civics in the driveway right now. One replaced a Civic and I note that they are both bigger than the Accord that preceded that Civic.

 

[adorshki]

FWIW, I still view the Civic as a ridiculously well priced & reliable small/medium sized car that it's been at least since the 80's. Two Civics in the driveway right now. One replaced a Civic and I note that they are both bigger than the Accord that preceded that Civic.

The parallels between the building and marketing of cars and guitars are manifold. Observing them is one of my pet hobbies now.

 

[Nigel Wickwire]

.....................
The problem is, that historically, Guilds were such an outstanding value and the contrast between their old price point and their new one is quite obvious to anyone who remembers the good ole days. Everyone here is keenly aware of what Guilds used to cost.

..............

Over in the, "Maybe should shop around" thread, Littlesongs makes the point that Guild is no better or no worse a value than they've ever been:

http://letstalkguild.com/phpBB2/vie...224446&hilit=+adjusted+for+inflation+#p224446

http://letstalkguild.com/phpBB2/vie...224351&hilit=+adjusted+for+inflation+#p224351

http://letstalkguild.com/phpBB2/vie...224322&hilit=+adjusted+for+inflation+#p224322

And he backs it up with some interesting comparisons.

I'd be curious to know by what measure , does current Guild pricing radically depart from where is has been?

Not trying to be argumentative, but curious as to why you feel that way? Any numbers to back it up?

~nw

Edit: fixed switched tense and spelling.

 

[West R Lee]

[quote="devellis, in part":16oqncmn]
.....................
The problem is, that historically, Guilds were such an outstanding value and the contrast between their old price point and their new one is quite obvious to anyone who remembers the good ole days. Everyone here is keenly aware of what Guilds used to cost.

..............

Over in the, "Maybe should shop around" thread, Littlesongs makes the point that Guild is no better or no worse a value than they've ever been:

http://letstalkguild.com/phpBB2/vie...224446&hilit=+adjusted+for+inflation+#p224446

http://letstalkguild.com/phpBB2/vie...224351&hilit=+adjusted+for+inflation+#p224351

http://letstalkguild.com/phpBB2/vie...224322&hilit=+adjusted+for+inflation+#p224322

And he backs it up with some interesting comparisons.

I'd be curious to know by what measure , does current Guild pricing radically depart from where is has been?

Not trying to be argumentative, but curious as to why you feel that way? Any numbers to back it up?

~nw

Edit: fixed switched tense and spelling.[/quote:16oqncmn]


I think if you read through there Nigel, as in parts of this thread, you'll see that some rationalize the higher prices with new guitar building techniques, some said to be much better than old methods and with different materials. At least that's what I'm getting.

West

 

[Ridgemont]

I'd be curious to know by what measure , does current Guild pricing radically depart from where is has been?

Not trying to be argumentative, but curious as to why you feel that way? Any numbers to back it up?

Well I wasn't around during the 60s where you could get an F30 for $100, but Guild being an outstanding value is something that most have adopted over the years. If you look at the MSRP of the F30 from 1973 after inflation, you get $2332. The current F30 has an MSRP of $2699 so one could argue that there is $367 in loss of values. When you think about it, people are complaining about $367, unless my logic is wrong.

Now factor in this: As of Oct. 1st, we will see about a $300 increase in the Traditional Series MAP. Lets assume that the $300 is also reflected in the MSRP. So a current F30 will have an MSRP of $2999. Now we have a loss of value of $667. This price increase of 11% cannot be argued just inflation for just one year. Some will argue that this price difference doesn't fit with the Guild of old and I would agree. But if Guild is trying to redefine themselves as a high end boutique, their price increase will have to be reflected in the guitar that you buy. Or maybe it already is?

 

[Ridgemont]

I think if you read through there Nigel, as in parts of this thread, you'll see that some rationalize the higher prices with new guitar building techniques, some said to be much better than old methods and with different materials. At least that's what I'm getting.
West

Actually West, I believe it is the opposite. While I wasn't on the LMG tour, I think Guild designed the Std series in this manor: they took a Trad Series guitar into a conference room and had a panel discussion on how to cut its price by striping/substituting/adjusting its construction. At the end of the day, they got a guitar they could sell for slightly less than a Trad Series guitar. The adoption of modern techniques allowed them to build a guitar in a way that was more cost effective, not necessarily better. I do not think anyone has argued that the Std series (with all its modern space age technology) will be better than the Trad line, and Guild certainly doesn't feel that way as evidenced by the upcoming price increase of the Trad line. The new line is just more cost effective. The only way I have been able to justify the current price range of the new Std line is the incorporation of nicer than expected materials (I expected less). Late Westerly budget models (D25 and F30) came with corian nut/saddles and I was expecting something similar on the Std line. Instead Guild chose bone. Hence a higher than expected price for me.

 

[West R Lee]

I'd be curious to know by what measure , does current Guild pricing radically depart from where is has been?

Not trying to be argumentative, but curious as to why you feel that way? Any numbers to back it up?

Well I wasn't around during the 60s where you could get an F30 for $100, but Guild being an outstanding value is something that most have adopted over the years. If you look at the MSRP of the F30 from 1973 after inflation, you get $2332. The current F30 has an MSRP of $2699 so one could argue that there is $367 in loss of values. When you think about it, people are complaining about $367, unless my logic is wrong.

Now factor in this: As of Oct. 1st, we will see about a $300 increase in the Traditional Series MAP. Lets assume that the $300 is also reflected in the MSRP. So a current F30 will have an MSRP of $2999. Now we have a loss of value of $667. This price increase of 11% cannot be argued just inflation for just one year. Some will argue that this price difference doesn't fit with the Guild of old and I would agree. But if Guild is trying to redefine themselves as a high end boutique, their price increase will have to be reflected in the guitar that you buy. Or maybe it already is?

Thats' not my point Ridge. I think everyone agrees that price increases have been pretty much in line with other brands, the ultimate question to me as one that's watched Guild and Guild prices for over 30 years is whether or not Guild had the clout anymore to command the higher prices....a little higher than your inflation math would bear out by your own admission.

It's not a question of if they do or do not make good guitars, not one of are prices almost in line with inflation, but the question to me is....Isn't Guild being a tad presumptuous in assuming their guitars will be worth the higher prices to the public? And Ridge, you know as well as I do that a bone nut and saddle might cost Guild $5 over the old plastic ones or micarta. Just pointing out that I don't see any options on the Traditional series worth hundreds of dollars to me anyway. We'll see.

West

 

[Nigel Wickwire]

Now factor in this: As of Oct. 1st, we will see about a $300 increase in the Traditional Series MAP. Lets assume that the $300 is also reflected in the MSRP. So a current F30 will have an MSRP of $2999. Now we have a loss of value of $667. This price increase of 11% cannot be argued just inflation for just one year. Some will argue that this price difference doesn't fit with the Guild of old and I would agree. But if Guild is trying to redefine themselves as a high end boutique, their price increase will have to be reflected in the guitar that you buy. Or maybe it already is?

I happen to have a 2009 Guild price list (prices effective, Feb 1, 2009) and 2010 Guild price list (prices effective Jan 1, 2010). Both of these docs, show the same MSRP for the F30 - $2699.99.

Could one make the argument that the Traditional series was due for a price hike? Or at least, spread that 11% increase over two years? Does anyone have a Guild 2008 Price list (in PDF) handy?

~nw

 

[West R Lee]

No 2008 pricelist Nige, but Tim was kind enough to link these to his site for future reference.

http://westerlyguildguitars.com/pricelists.htm

West

 

[Ridgemont]

Thats' not my point Ridge. I think everyone agrees that price increases have been pretty much in line with other brands, the ultimate question to me as one that's watched Guild and Guild prices for over 30 years is whether or not Guild had the clout anymore to command the higher prices....a little higher than your inflation math would bear out by your own admission.

It's not a question of if they do or do not make good guitars, not one of are prices almost in line with inflation, but the question to me is....Isn't Guild being a tad presumptuous in assuming their guitars will be worth the higher prices to the public? And Ridge, you know as well as I do that a bone nut and saddle might cost Guild $5 over the old plastic ones or micarta. Just pointing out that I don't see any options on the Traditional series worth hundreds of dollars to me anyway. We'll see.

West

You are correct sir. Guild being able to successfully redefine its role in the guitar world is the ultimate question that only time will tell. Advertising more would definitely make things run smoother.

As far as pricing of the Std series and their choice in materials, I still do not know how I feel about it. My example of a bone nut/saddle was not meant for comparison purposes with the Trad line, but a way to rationalize the Std series MAPs being placed in the $1800-2100 price range. I am sure other appointments on the Std line will help in justifying this price range as well.

Now the price new price hike is also a tough pill to swallow. I never said I agreed with it, but as I have said before, I understand why Guild chose to do it. The introduction of the Std line and its new pricing interfered with the Trad line pricing. I was always under the impression that the Trad line would stay the same and the Std line would have MAPs between $1-2K and not interfere. Personally, with all my business inexperience, I think Guild should have released the Std line with MAPs between $1-2K. This would allow the brand to regain its reputation in the guitar world. A slow annual increase in price would then be justified and won't upset people as much as a dramatic $300 hike.

 

[West R Lee]

Thats' not my point Ridge. I think everyone agrees that price increases have been pretty much in line with other brands, the ultimate question to me as one that's watched Guild and Guild prices for over 30 years is whether or not Guild had the clout anymore to command the higher prices....a little higher than your inflation math would bear out by your own admission.

It's not a question of if they do or do not make good guitars, not one of are prices almost in line with inflation, but the question to me is....Isn't Guild being a tad presumptuous in assuming their guitars will be worth the higher prices to the public? And Ridge, you know as well as I do that a bone nut and saddle might cost Guild $5 over the old plastic ones or micarta. Just pointing out that I don't see any options on the Traditional series worth hundreds of dollars to me anyway. We'll see.

West

You are correct sir. Guild being able to successfully redefine its role in the guitar world is the ultimate question that only time will tell. Advertising more would definitely make things run smoother.

As far as pricing of the Std series and their choice in materials, I still do not know how I feel about it. My example of a bone nut/saddle was not meant for comparison purposes with the Trad line, but a way to rationalize the Std series MAPs being placed in the $1800-2100 price range. I am sure other appointments on the Std line will help in justifying this price range as well.

Now the price new price hike is also a tough pill to swallow. I never said I agreed with it, but as I have said before, I understand why Guild chose to do it. The introduction of the Std line and its new pricing interfered with the Trad line pricing. I was always under the impression that the Trad line would stay the same and the Std line would have MAPs between $1-2K and not interfere. Personally, with all my business inexperience, I think Guild should have released the Std line with MAPs between $1-2K. This would allow the brand regain its reputation in the guitar world. A slow annual increase in price would then be justified and won't upset people as much as a dramatic $300 hike.

Absolutely Ridge..........bait 'em with the standard models, then switch'em to the higher priced traditional ones. Spark the public's interest, once you've got it, then introduce a more expensive line. Yep, you nailed it there. Furthermore, in my view, they really should be far more "established", or re-established I should say before they start jacking prices up, but who knows, heck they may have orders for 100,000 guitars.

West

 

[markus]

Does anyone have a Guild 2008 Price list (in PDF) handy?

2008 MSRP was 1999.99
Markus

PM sent …

 

[adorshki]

On a very personal note -- this really bothers me -- but I have been accused of being a shill for Fender. I do not concede this point, but draw your own conclusions. I can only tell you that I believe Guild is in good hands today.

As I said in another thread, in 2004 I was sincerely afraid Fender was about to make Guild an imported-ONLY nameplate due to the introduction of the GAD's. 6 years later we can STILL buy American made Guilds. For many if not most of us here that's a very important element in our evaluation of Guild's perceived value. In that regard I believe Fender has done the best job possible with the brand in a challenging global economic environment.
If that makes me a shill for Fender, so be it. I believe their actions speak for themselves.