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[Bill Ashton]

Is there someone around here that has an extra foot we can shoot into? :shock:

I kind of followed this conversation with a mind to reserve any judgement until we actually
saw the guitars on the market and what the prices were set at...it was hard, but I was really trying.

One helluva way to run an airline...

Better get that check in fast, Chaz!

 

[Ridgemont]

As we speak, now there are different numbers to plug into the formula.
We just received word that the Traditional series will receive a price increase Oct 1

Hey Bing,

Do you have any info or specs on the price increase? It would be kind of nice to see where we stand in terms of the plug in numbers. While I was hoping Guild would not adjust prices in this direction, it only makes sense to create a bigger price gap between the Std and Trad lines. This is something that has worried me ever since the announcement of the Std line. On the bright side, an increase in price of the Trad line should indirectly increase the value of all those "Traditional Line" Westerly guitars.

 

[chazmo]

Bing, you do realize that you made Chazmo wet himself...

Where's the towel?

Bing, what was the mechanism for ordering, etc.? The usual?

 

[Dr. Spivey]

Thanks Bing.

Based on the specs, it seems that they are still throwing in some quality parts such as Gotoh tuners and bone nut/saddle. This could justify a price higher that the Martin -15 and -16series and the Taylor 3 series. But keep in mind that these guitars are the target competition. I would rather see equal or similar prices by cutting out more some added features such as a bone nut. I can get a 000-16RGT for $1050 at GC and I would be inclined to buy an F30R Standard for a little more, but not $750 like the MAPs are suggesting. What is the point of buying an F30 STD for $1800 when I can drive 1 mile to my local shop and buy a much much nicer F30 traditional for $1999.

The OOO-16RGT is a discontinued model. It features a mortise and tenon neck joint (not bolt on as is often mis-stated), a plastic nut and saddle, plastic fretboard and a neck made of "select hardwood". Hardly fair to compare it to a F30.

http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/choosing/guitars.php?m=000-16RGT&p=i

 

[Ridgemont]

Thanks Bing.

Based on the specs, it seems that they are still throwing in some quality parts such as Gotoh tuners and bone nut/saddle. This could justify a price higher that the Martin -15 and -16series and the Taylor 3 series. But keep in mind that these guitars are the target competition. I would rather see equal or similar prices by cutting out more some added features such as a bone nut. I can get a 000-16RGT for $1050 at GC and I would be inclined to buy an F30R Standard for a little more, but not $750 like the MAPs are suggesting. What is the point of buying an F30 STD for $1800 when I can drive 1 mile to my local shop and buy a much much nicer F30 traditional for $1999.

The OOO-16RGT is a discontinued model. It features a mortise and tenon neck joint (not bolt on as is often mis-stated), a plastic nut and saddle, plastic fretboard and a neck made of "select hardwood". Hardly fair to compare it to a F30.

http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/choosing/guitars.php?m=000-16RGT&p=i

Hey Spiv,

You are absolutely right on both accounts. First off, my Martin models knowledge must be a little old. The only -16 series I could find in this price range is the D16GT and the D16RGT both available for $1050 and $1250 respectively. We can use either one in the example/argument above. I can buy a D16GT at GC for $1050 and I would be inclined to buy a D40 Standard for a little more, but not $750 like the MAPs are suggesting. Of course in this example, I am assuming and giving Guild the benefit of the doubt that they will sell a D40 Std for $1800, which I doubt. The F30 and D40 Trad do not sell for the same price.

Now is the F30R and the 000-16RGT significantly different? Absolutely. And that is my point. Based on the specs, it appears that the Guild Std series is still going to provide a high quality high end product. That can't necessarily be said about the -16 series or the 3 series by Taylor. Guild, based on the discussions that came out of LMG, gave us the impression that they were going to start producing a product in a more affordable price range, somewhere between $1-2K. To achieve this, new techniques would have to be developed in addition to downgrading of some perks such as switching to a satin neck. In the end Guild came out with a guitar that was still too nice to fit within this price range. This defeated the purpose that they were supposed to achieve (at least led to believe).

Now that other things have come to light, I see what Guild was trying to achieve all along. The developed a new line of Guitars using modern techniques in addition to some downgrades and placed them in a price range a little less but similar to the Traditional line. Then as of Oct. 1st, they will increase the price of the Trad line and turn it into their higher end model with the GSR models at the very top. It seems the Std line is here not to compete with the -16 series, but compete with the Martin Std series (-18, -28), at least in terms of price. I still hold to the belief that an F30 Std will sound better than a 000-18 and would most likely choose the Guild over the Martin.

I have been a little critical on this thread about the release and price range of the new Std series, but now with the new price increase of the Trad line, I see where this is going.

 

[jcwu]

Strings: D'Addario® EXP 17 Coated Phosphor Bronze, (Gauges
.013-.056)

Yes!! It's nice to know that I'm using factory-approved strings on my old Guilds.

 

[adorshki]

Strings: D'Addario® EXP 17 Coated Phosphor Bronze, (Gauges
.013-.056)

Yes!! It's nice to know that I'm using factory-approved strings on my old Guilds.

Except that they upped the spec from light to mediums. If you truly want to remain factory stock for the era, use the EJ-16's (or the coated equivalent)
I noticed that change on the website and my first thought was "Ah, they've gone BACK to D'Addario", since I remain convinced that was their OEM, at least during late Westerly. It's been discussed in at least a couple of threads.

 

[Dr. Spivey]

Now that other things have come to light, I see what Guild was trying to achieve all along. The developed a new line of Guitars using modern techniques in addition to some downgrades and placed them in a price range a little less but similar to the Traditional line. Then as of Oct. 1st, they will increase the price of the Trad line and turn it into their higher end model with the GSR models at the very top. It seems the Std line is here not to compete with the -16 series, but compete with the Martin Std series (-18, -28), at least in terms of price. I still hold to the belief that an F30 Std will sound better than a 000-18 and would most likely choose the Guild over the Martin.

I have been a little critical on this thread about the release and price range of the new Std series, but now with the new price increase of the Trad line, I see where this is going.

Interesting, Ridge. I just looked at the new Guild price list, which I hadn't yet seen. Your point is well made. FMIC will find a way to muck things up, just give 'em time. :roll:

 

[Ridgemont]

Now that other things have come to light, I see what Guild was trying to achieve all along. The developed a new line of Guitars using modern techniques in addition to some downgrades and placed them in a price range a little less but similar to the Traditional line. Then as of Oct. 1st, they will increase the price of the Trad line and turn it into their higher end model with the GSR models at the very top. It seems the Std line is here not to compete with the -16 series, but compete with the Martin Std series (-18, -28), at least in terms of price. I still hold to the belief that an F30 Std will sound better than a 000-18 and would most likely choose the Guild over the Martin.

I have been a little critical on this thread about the release and price range of the new Std series, but now with the new price increase of the Trad line, I see where this is going.

Interesting, Ridge. I just looked at the new Guild price list, which I hadn't yet seen. Your point is well made. FMIC will find a way to muck things up, just give 'em time. :roll:

Yes, it may be a big muck up by FMIC. We will have to see how all this plays out. After all is said and done, Guilds may still be a good deal relative to a competitor such as Martin. I have been arguing for quite a while now that a Trad Guild D50 and a Std Martin D28 is a very unfair comparison. It may have been 20 years ago, but Guild has changed the D50 quite a bit since moving to Tacoma that the comparison now days in no longer valid. If you compare the Trad D50 to a D28 Marquis (the best fit Martin has), the D50 is significantly more affordable and hopefully will stay that way even after the price increase. Now, when the Std D50 is unveiled, I am hoping it will have an advertised price or MAP price less than $2300 (MAP of a Std D28). If that is the case, the Guild should be a better deal....hopefully.

Another ongoing thread here has many complaints about Guild being as expensive as other brands and no longer being a good deal. I am a firm believer that currently Guild is a great deal if you make the appropriate comparisons. After October 1st, we will see if that holds up. Unless someone has the new price list and would like to divulge.

 

[Bill Ashton]

The "new" price list isn't posted on their site, still the Winter 2010 version...

 

[chazmo]

The "new" price list isn't posted on their site, still the Winter 2010 version...

Neither are the Standard Series models listed anywhere yet. I suspect the new price list will come soon, in addition with listing the new models. For that matter, has anyone spotted any supporting documentation/catalogs anywhere yet? I'm dying to see something. Google turned up zip.

FYI, I do have confirmation from New Hartford (not that I doubted Bing for a second) that they started shipping Standard Series this week.

Tallyho! -- Chaz

 

[devellis]

Another ongoing thread here has many complaints about Guild being as expensive as other brands and no longer being a good deal. I am a firm believer that currently Guild is a great deal if you make the appropriate comparisons. After October 1st, we will see if that holds up. Unless someone has the new price list and would like to divulge.

I agree that the current Guilds are worth the prices that are being asked for them. They're expensive, but also very nice guitars with great tone and high-end appointments. They and Gibson remain as the only two brands that can get away so successfully with bliniging up a guitar. On other brands, the contrasting bindings, abalone-over-pearl inlays, pinstripe fingerboard accents. and all would look kind of silly. They work on Guild and Gibson because they're authentic period styling not some affectation. So, they're a lot of guitar, even for a lot of money.

The problem is, that historically, Guilds were such an outstanding value and the contrast between their old price point and their new one is quite obvious to anyone who remembers the good ole days. Everyone here is keenly aware of what Guilds used to cost.

I guess the question is whether there is a new market who know enough about the brand to value it but who aren't aware of its increased price point, relative to competing brands. If so, then they shouldn't find Guilds too pricey for what the offer, relative to competitors. But folks my age may well be shocked that Guild is suddenly priced similarly to some premium and, in some cases, boutique brands (although not for directly comparable instruments; Guilds are generally less expensive when compared in that way).

We've said here before that Guild needs to cultivate a younger market while not alienating the boomers. Its meager advertising doesn't yet reflect that. Maybe once the Standards are hanging on dealer walls, they'll put on a push, using the lower prices of the standards as a lure to buyers and hoping that some of them will be seduced into springing for the Traditionals. The marketing guys will be heroes or goats, depending on whether or not it works.

 

[Dr. Spivey]

The "new" price list isn't posted on their site, still the Winter 2010 version...

Neither are the Standard Series models listed anywhere yet. I suspect the new price list will come soon, in addition with listing the new models. For that matter, has anyone spotted any supporting documentation/catalogs anywhere yet? I'm dying to see something. Google turned up zip.

FYI, I do have confirmation from New Hartford (not that I doubted Bing for a second) that they started shipping Standard Series this week.

Tallyho! -- Chaz

The last time I looked, 2-3months ago the "effective Feb. 2009" price list was still posted. So, it's new to me.

 

[Bing k]

The Maps are up substantially

Looks like the Maps are up $300 across the board.

 

[markus]

The last time I looked, 2-3months ago the "effective Feb. 2009" price list was still posted. So, it's new to me.

I think the 2010 version hasn't been published online more then a week ago … I guess I had a look on the 2009 version online while reading this thread. :shock:
Markus

 

[fungusyoung]

The problem is, that historically, Guilds were such an outstanding value and the contrast between their old price point and their new one is quite obvious to anyone who remembers the good ole days. Everyone here is keenly aware of what Guilds used to cost.

I guess the question is whether there is a new market who know enough about the brand to value it but who aren't aware of its increased price point, relative to competing brands. If so, then they shouldn't find Guilds too pricey for what the offer, relative to competitors. But folks my age may well be shocked that Guild is suddenly priced similarly to some premium and, in some cases, boutique brands (although not for directly comparable instruments; Guilds are generally less expensive when compared in that way).

Very good post!

I think there are 3 fundamental problems with Guild's current pricing.

First, there are the longtime Guild fans (like many here) that not only remember the pricing from the good old days, they are also aware that most compatible Westerly era models (compared to New Hartfords) can be had in very good to excellent shape for half (or less) than a new one. A new Guild vs. a used Guild is competition. Fender knows this too because their new electric guitar sales have suffered immensely vs. the used market options (especially in this economy).

Secondly, Guild is now entering a completely different place in the market vs. their former unofficial "poor man's Martin" niche. For newer/inexperienced buyers, they would be taking a relative risk on buying a new Guild vs. the much more familiar & well distributed brands like Martin, Taylor & Gibson. Can a new buyer that's ready to fork over $2K on a guitar be expected to go with a relative unknown compared to an old standby?

Third, most longtime Martin, Taylor, etc. players know a bit about Guild's history. In spite of their historical allegiance to a particular brand (say Gibson), many of these folks are weary &/or critical of changes in that brand's production location &/or approach, changes in quality during certain periods, etc. To many of these folks, Guild's constant moving around since they were bought by Fender is a major black eye that wreaks of instability & an uncertain future.

 

[Ridgemont]

I think there are 3 fundamental problems with Guild's current pricing.

First, there are the longtime Guild fans (like many here) that not only remember the pricing from the good old days, they are also aware that most compatible Westerly era models (compared to New Hartfords) can be had in very good to excellent shape for half (or less) than a new one. A new Guild vs. a used Guild is competition. Fender knows this too because their new electric guitar sales have suffered immensely vs. the used market options (especially in this economy).

Secondly, Guild is now entering a completely different place in the market vs. their former unofficial "poor man's Martin" niche. For newer/inexperienced buyers, they would be taking a relative risk on buying a new Guild vs. the much more familiar & well distributed brands like Martin, Taylor & Gibson. Can a new buyer that's ready to fork over $2K on a guitar be expected to go with a relative unknown compared to an old standby?

Third, most longtime Martin, Taylor, etc. players know a bit about Guild's history. In spite of their historical allegiance to a particular brand (say Gibson), many of these folks are weary &/or critical of changes in that brand's production location &/or approach, changes in quality during certain periods, etc. To many of these folks, Guild's constant moving around since they were bought by Fender is a major black eye that wreaks of instability & an uncertain future.

This is something that doesn't just plague Guild. The used market will always be a better deal (in terms of price) than buying new. Initial depreciation affects guitars as well as cars. A used Westerly will sell for a cheaper price than a new Westerly. But you are absolutely right in saying that it is competition especially in this economy. However, one thing I have noticed is the reduction of used Guilds on the market over the past year. For me, it is easier to buy a new GAD or Trad Guild than a used Guild.

On your second point, as new younger buyers are introduced to Guild through an affordable means such as GADs, there is a possibility that they will continue to grow with the brand. Maybe not become loyalists, but eventually upgrade to a Standard series guitar. You can not deny this possibility. But this cannot be done without exposure. When I go to GC or turn on the television, I am usually exposed to the world of high end guitars as being Taylor, Martin, and Gibson. Those are the brand that are guaranteed to be in the picture. Selling GADs and maybe a couple of Std series guitars at Sam Ash will be a critical step for exposure. And having some well known guitarists play them for exposure as well. Of course, this may work if you want to sell a million guitars. Boutique guitars such as Santa Cruz and Collings have much more limited exposure, but excel as a boutique.

The hiccups in Guild production over the last decade is something that Guild can overcome. You can't deny it is there, but if Fender really is dedicated to the advancement and redefining of Guild, I think most will overlook the last decade in time. Martin and Gibson both went through some shaky periods and they overcame adversity.

But hey, only time will tell. The glass is either half full or half empty with the price increase starting October 1st. I still do not know how I feel about it. Like I said a while ago, I would like to buy a new Guild when I can afford it, but for now I will just be a spectator. Currently I am not the target audience. It seems that many old timers who remember the good old days are upset every time Guild raises prices. That is understandable since the new Guild business model is drastically different from 30 years ago. But based on all the recent changes and resulting complaint on this forum, I have a feeling that the old timers are not the main target audience anyway.

 

[chazmo]

Well put, guys. I think we all share these concerns. And, we really do share our love for Guild of the past (and the value these products offered over the last 50+ years).

Where we seem to (often) differ, I think, is the level to which we are comfortable accepting changes in brand direction and placement. I think we are all over the map with, say, our willingness to forgive Fender for sins of the past, or, say, our willingness to accept factory / management changes. I state this not to be provocative, only to point out that that's what I think is fundamentally a source of irritation and friction among our members.

What I really like is open, frank discussion like we have seen here and in the "shop around" thread. There is something to be gained in sharing these concerns and biases; I really believe that anyway. Your mileage may vary.

On a very personal note -- this really bothers me -- but I have been accused of being a shill for Fender. I do not concede this point, but draw your own conclusions. I can only tell you that I believe Guild is in good hands today. That's why I keep cheering along. Whether that blinds me to the concerns our members express... jeez guys, I really don't think so, but some folks may feel that way. Again, draw your own conclusions.

 

[fronobulax]

Several folks have expressed angst because a new Guild no longer occupies the same price/performance/value location in the market that it did 10 or more years ago. That is just a fact of life, IMO, and not necessarily a rational reason for doing anything, or not, today.

Consider the Honda Civic as sold in America. When it was introduced in the 1970's it was tiny and cheap (in the sense of acquisition and operating costs, not quality). It had some success and evolved. At one point it was a poster child for the superior quality of Japanese imports over domestic production. It grew in size to the point where a 4 door Civic as a family sedan was not a joke. In today's market it is a good solid choice but it is no longer the only or obvious choice on an objective quality/price/value evaluation.

Now, if I got bent out of shape because the 2010 Civic occupies a different place in the marketplace than the 1970's Civic then people would laugh at me. If I wanted to find the equivalent of the 1970's Civic in today's American market I would probably end up with a SMART Car and have to acknowledge that my loyalty was to an idea and not a brand. If I were the brand manager for today's Civic I probably would not even acknowledge the folks whose perceptions remained stuck in the 1970's, when I developed my current brand and advertising strategies.

 

[fungusyoung]

On a very personal note -- this really bothers me -- but I have been accused of being a shill for Fender. I do not concede this point, but draw your own conclusions. I can only tell you that I believe Guild is in good hands today. That's why I keep cheering along. Whether that blinds me to the concerns our members express... jeez guys, I really don't think so, but some folks may feel that way. Again, draw your own conclusions.

Wow, really? I'm totally shocked by this. It's VERY different IMO to be a shill vs. enthusiastic. Honestly, Chazmo, you bring hope to the table in my eyes for this new/exciting incarnation of Guild. We may disagree on some things, but I think we share a hopeful outlook.

Several folks have expressed angst because a new Guild no longer occupies the same price/performance/value location in the market that it did 10 or more years ago. That is just a fact of life, IMO, and not necessarily a rational reason for doing anything, or not, today

I think this is the only possible unfortunate slant on this thread that might result from some posts from the "concerned" (such as myself) in that our tone may be misread as angst. Honestly, I don't see ANY of the detractors as angst-ridden at all. Being bummed out, concerned or even indifferent about the new Guild offerings is completely different. We all get what Guild's trying to do on some level, but some of us have more trepidations about the route they've chosen.

FWIW, I still view the Civic as a ridiculously well priced & reliable small/medium sized car that it's been at least since the 80's.