OK this is driving me crazy - Do your strings touch the fretboard?

rampside

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Way back in the dark ages when I first tried to teach myself how to play, I thought it took the grip of death to get the chords to ring clean when in fact, that's what was slowing my progress considerably. Fast forward several decades and now that I know it's not necessary to touch the wood, my speed and overall playing has improved dramatically. I consciously work on that now and with the bends too.

Also, I was searching for some instruction the other day and found a very good site where the guy also confirmed there's no need to press any harder than to just get the string on the wire.

But then again, I suppose it all depends on your style.
 
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adorshki

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Way back in the dark ages when I first tried to teach myself how to play, I thought it took the grip of death to get the chords to ring clean when in fact, that's what was slowing my progress considerably. But then again, I suppose it all depends on your style.
On my first steel string, it did require a grip of death to get clean tone. But I also strum like Richie Havens and if they weren't pegged down tight they'd roll right out from under my fingers.
 

Bronsky

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I learned on a nylon string and I know the string was touching the board because the tension is so light you'd have to have the touch of a small child not to press the strings all the way down.
I also know that when I use a capo on my steel strings the strings get pressed all the way down.
I think I press all the way down too, but how can one be sure, especially when playing fast?
 

Drad Dog

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I learned on a nylon string and I know the string was touching the board because the tension is so light you'd have to have the touch of a small child not to press the strings all the way down.
I also know that when I use a capo on my steel strings the strings get pressed all the way down.
I think I press all the way down too, but how can one be sure, especially when playing fast?

The capo thing is just what I was thinking. Saying that pressing the string to the wood is off means that capos are out of bounds, or at least that they will go way out of tune when applied. They do go out, but not always and not always radically or unacceptably.
 

Christopher Cozad

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...Saying that pressing the string to the wood is off means that capos are out of bounds, or at least that they will go way out of tune when applied. They do go out, but not always and not always radically or unacceptably.

I would suggest that for many, many players the issue of whether or not the string touches the fretboard is moot or, at best, a technicality. I have drawn two images to hopefully demonstrate the point. An incline, or slope, is formed by the string spanning the distance between the nut and the saddle above the fret wires.

Fretboard.jpg


To "fret" the string one must merely alter the incline so the string touches a fretwire as opposed to resting on the nut. How hard one continues to press after the string has touched the fretwire is entirely up to the individual. Pushing the string all the way down to the fretboard is perfectly allowable and legal, albeit totally unnecessary. For some there is little, if any, perceptible difference between simply fretting the string with the minimal force necessary for it to sound clearly without buzzing and pressing the string all the way down to the fretboard. For others, there is a chasm of space beneath the string that shall not be entered into. I would propose that the taller the fretwire, the more exaggerated the issue. I would also propose that this can, potentially, become more of an issue the farther one traverses up the fretboard.
FrettedString.jpg

We are talking about distances measured in 1000ths of inches and, if one thinks in terms of sporting events and considers that races are won and lost by teeny, tiny amounts of distance, it may be easier to see that, for some, the "technicality" is actually quite significant. Put another way, if I am driving my car to the store and back, I may or may not drive with the same level of precision, attentiveness or responsiveness as if I were driving in a championship race. For the player, there is an undeniable level of precision and accuracy that is achievable with the acoustic guitar. Just how practical or realistic it may or may not be to pursue that level of skill is a question that each one will answer, individually. Thankfully, everyone doesn't have to be an Olympian in order to enjoy the guitar.

Regarding the fact that string intonation is altered by depressing harder than is needed, you admitted, "...they do go out". That is a true statement, as any stretching of a string affects intonation. Minimal stretching affects intonation minimally. You also said, "...not always radically or unacceptably". That may be the most significant statement I have read on the topic, as it beautifully demonstrates this issue is entirely subjective. Those who have perfect or near-perfect pitch will not only *hear* the sharper notes caused by over pressing the strings, but may react to the condition as though they are listening to fingernails scratching across a chalkboard. Others will simply not hear enough of a distortion to care, or will not be interested in altering their entire technique to address an occasional pitch difference.

Regarding the role of the capo in altering intonation, over-tightening a capo will cause the strings to sound sharp, just as under-tightening it will result in buzzing strings. Some people are not bothered by buzzing strings. For others it is a horrible condition to be avoided. Tightening the capo "just enough" to make solid contact with the fretwire is a bit easier than trying to determine if the strings beneath your fingertips are actually making contact with the wood. An interesting note here is that if you really crank that capo down in order to bend the string all the way to the deck, and then fret your notes by pressing hard, hard, hard into the fretboard you have, in effect, doubled the amount of intonation alteration...your notes cannot help but sound sharp. Nothing right or wrong about it, it is just the way it is.
 

walrus

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Nicely done, Christopher! As a person that does NOT have perfect pitch, it helps explain why I can't really notice (sound-wise) when I press down "aggressively". I just know I do, and I know it is a reason my fretboard has divots. It also explains my callouses!

walrus
 

rampside

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Well stated Christopher. The F-30 I just acquired the other day has had a recent set-up with a new compensated saddle and nut (not sure if the nut is compensated) and I've been researching the subject. Guitar intonation is indeed, very complex and as you mentioned "very subjective".
 

crank

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I consciously try to have a light touch. Maybe not so much when jamming (soloing) on my acoustic guitars because I am picking harder for volume, and my left hand seems to press harder when I do that. However, when amplified, either with an acoustic and especially with my electric guitars I believe I do not, for the most part, press all the way down to wood. Lighter touch = faster and smoother and I am slow and thus need all the help I can get.
 

walrus

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I should do that too, crank - like you, I would have to really think about it. My natural tendency is not one of "lightness".

walrus
 

Christopher Cozad

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Nicely done, Christopher! As a person that does NOT have perfect pitch, it helps explain why I can't really notice (sound-wise) when I press down "aggressively". I just know I do, and I know it is a reason my fretboard has divots. It also explains my callouses!

walrus

Those callouses also contribute to the diminished capacity (that makes it sound like a bad thing - LOL) to feel what is going on, though they are certainly necessary to make playing a steel string guitar an enjoyable event. Keeping the fingernails of your fretting hand non-protruding may help to extend the life of the fretboard, but that means trimming them constantly (I use steel tools - some are adept with teeth).

You bring up another interesting issue, that being divots. Just as you have said, these are typically caused by the fingertips / fingernails and exist between the strings. For those who are continually pressing strings down onto the fretboard *and* bending the strings (knowingly or unknowingly) there is a natural shaving effect as the steel scrapes the wood which results in divots that exist directly beneath the string(s). As these get deeper, the issue of sharpening the notes is compounded, since the string is traveling farther each time a note is played (relatively speaking).

I would add that worn fretwire is often just as culpable for intonation issues as is "over pressing" (if not more so). Technically everything, every measurement, is crucial for proper intonation and that includes fretwire height (another involved topic - height is not an independent issue, but rather part of the overall setup which includes nut, neck relief, fingerboard radius and action (string height). Over time the wire wears and the string must travel farther to make contact. String buzz is usually the first indicator of trouble, and quick fixes such as adjusting neck relief, raising saddle height or (gasp!) filing adjacent fretwires may alleviate the buzz but only delay the inevitable fretwire replacement. I would encourage aggressive finger pressers (new forum idea?) who *are* bothered by intonation issues to become adept at replacing fretwire (or at least be on the lookout for excessive wear and have a local repair shop put things right).

As a side note regarding divots, fingerboards do not necessarily always need to be shaved (where the fretwires are removed and the wood is planed down) in order to deal with the divots. The pot hole(s) can be filled. This is especially effective if the damage (again - relative term) is limited to a small area (such as the first position D and A chords). Who would have thought acoustic guitar maintenance could be so involved, right? I will attest that having your guitar properly intonated and set up perfectly comfortable for you will make for more frequent playing.
 

Christopher Cozad

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...The F-30 I just acquired the other day has had a recent set-up with a new compensated saddle and nut (not sure if the nut is compensated) and I've been researching the subject...

Very cool stuff, isn't it?

A compensated nut is fairly evident, visually, as it is typically accomplished with a shelf or ledge that projects slightly out onto the fretboard in order to adjust for individual string scale length. Here is an example:

earvana.jpg
 

rampside

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Very cool stuff, isn't it?

A compensated nut is fairly evident, visually, as it is typically accomplished with a shelf or ledge that projects slightly out onto the fretboard in order to adjust for individual string scale length. Here is an example:

earvana.jpg


Yes it is! Fascinating indeed.

The nut on mine doesn't look like that, but maybe I misunderstood that, a nut could be compensated by filing the slot(s) at an angle as to change the string's point of contact?
 

Christopher Cozad

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...a nut could be compensated by filing the slot(s) at an angle as to change the string's point of contact?

True. There is an advantage to the overhang approach, as it uses the end of the fretboard for a reference as well as makes use of full nut height. Filing behind the end of the fretboard (back toward the headstock) is fraught with difficulty, especially for those that must maintain it.
 

rampside

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True. There is an advantage to the overhang approach, as it uses the end of the fretboard for a reference as well as makes use of full nut height. Filing behind the end of the fretboard (back toward the headstock) is fraught with difficulty, especially for those that must maintain it.

Thanks, Christopher.
Terry
 

Drad Dog

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I would suggest that for many, many players the issue of whether or not the string touches the fretboard is moot or, at best, a technicality. I have drawn two images to hopefully demonstrate the point. An incline, or slope, is formed by the string spanning the distance between the nut and the saddle above the fret wires.

Fretboard.jpg


To "fret" the string one must merely alter the incline so the string touches a fretwire as opposed to resting on the nut. How hard one continues to press after the string has touched the fretwire is entirely up to the individual. Pushing the string all the way down to the fretboard is perfectly allowable and legal, albeit totally unnecessary. For some there is little, if any, perceptible difference between simply fretting the string with the minimal force necessary for it to sound clearly without buzzing and pressing the string all the way down to the fretboard. For others, there is a chasm of space beneath the string that shall not be entered into. I would propose that the taller the fretwire, the more exaggerated the issue. I would also propose that this can, potentially, become more of an issue the farther one traverses up the fretboard.
FrettedString.jpg

We are talking about distances measured in 1000ths of inches and, if one thinks in terms of sporting events and considers that races are won and lost by teeny, tiny amounts of distance, it may be easier to see that, for some, the "technicality" is actually quite significant. Put another way, if I am driving my car to the store and back, I may or may not drive with the same level of precision, attentiveness or responsiveness as if I were driving in a championship race. For the player, there is an undeniable level of precision and accuracy that is achievable with the acoustic guitar. Just how practical or realistic it may or may not be to pursue that level of skill is a question that each one will answer, individually. Thankfully, everyone doesn't have to be an Olympian in order to enjoy the guitar.

Regarding the fact that string intonation is altered by depressing harder than is needed, you admitted, "...they do go out". That is a true statement, as any stretching of a string affects intonation. Minimal stretching affects intonation minimally. You also said, "...not always radically or unacceptably". That may be the most significant statement I have read on the topic, as it beautifully demonstrates this issue is entirely subjective. Those who have perfect or near-perfect pitch will not only *hear* the sharper notes caused by over pressing the strings, but may react to the condition as though they are listening to fingernails scratching across a chalkboard. Others will simply not hear enough of a distortion to care, or will not be interested in altering their entire technique to address an occasional pitch difference.

Regarding the role of the capo in altering intonation, over-tightening a capo will cause the strings to sound sharp, just as under-tightening it will result in buzzing strings. Some people are not bothered by buzzing strings. For others it is a horrible condition to be avoided. Tightening the capo "just enough" to make solid contact with the fretwire is a bit easier than trying to determine if the strings beneath your fingertips are actually making contact with the wood. An interesting note here is that if you really crank that capo down in order to bend the string all the way to the deck, and then fret your notes by pressing hard, hard, hard into the fretboard you have, in effect, doubled the amount of intonation alteration...your notes cannot help but sound sharp. Nothing right or wrong about it, it is just the way it is.

Well, I can see you don't use Kyser capos.

For me and my purpose to have a guitar where the frets were that high, and/or the strings that taut, I think I would be fighting with the thing and using much more energy than i do. To me taut strings are the most strength sapping element in playing. I'm still not sure why using the board to act as the limit of the strings descent is not more accurate than moving the string in air without a descent point. especially considering that for every note on the guitar you come at it differently at different times (Making a C chord, picking a note, making a barre chord, having other strings fretted from above or below, or skipping strings, also where your fingers just came from, it's a huge variety of attacks)

For me it's not "totally unnecessary" at all; My strings don't sound clear unless they touch the board. (to the best of my perceptual abilities). That's my setup. But I don't see myself as player. I sing, write songs, and strum. If I were to have all that power that I might waste in pressing down too hard I would spend it making more nice chords and pressing down hard anyway.

For all the physics involved, on the one hand, and all the implications for a beginner on the other hand, from the high and low, this is surprisingly not well discussed. except maybe here. Thanks
DD
 

chazmo

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I just saw the compensated nut that Chris posted earlier. I've never seen that before, and frankly it makes no sense to me at all. Am I missing something? How can this be helpful to intonation? It seems to me that if you tune such a guitar open, it's going to sound wrong as soon as you fret any strings. I presume this is not for folks who do barre chords...

Sorry, I'm completely ignorant on this and I'd like to try to understand it.
 

davismanLV

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Another reason why I rarely use a Kyser capo. It's not adjustable. And those springs are STIFF and the only thing that stops the capo is the fretboard. Shubb capos are adjustable (every guitar is a tiny bit different) and you can get them right on the fretwire so it's like creating a new (lower) nut. Also, the amount of pressure I use depends on where I am on the fretboard. Cowboy chords nearer the nut where the action is pretty low, you don't have to fret as hard. Higher up on the fretboard, say when I'm on the 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th frets, the action is quite a bit higher and I have to depress them further and so I tend to press harder to keep them under control. This may have been already mentioned above.... I'm not sure. :encouragement:
 

davismanLV

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Chazmo, I would figure to compensate a nut, you have to change the point at which is breaks over the nut. You could do it down in the nut slot somewhere, but then the remainder of the nut slot (from the break out to the fretboard) is going to interfere with the string vibration. So if you change the edge of the nut on the fretboard side, then you've compensated the string, and it is allowed to vibrate free of the remainder of the nut slot. That's what I'm thinking. Christopher, am I getting this right?? :concern:
 

chazmo

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Tom, no sorry... I understand what the nut in Chris' picture shows. Same principle as a compensated saddle. What I don't understand is how compensating a string at the nut helps intonation. With the compensated nut, as soon as you use the low frets, you're significantly changing the percentage of vibrating string from what the fret placement was designed for. I.e., you should be *way* sharp in the low frets, depending on how far back you've grooved that nut edge.

I'm sorry, maybe I can't describe my confusion properly.
 
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