OK this is driving me crazy - Do your strings touch the fretboard?

davismanLV

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No, no.... I hear what you're saying. And I don't know, compensation only works as far as the frets go. Maybe what you're describing would be a reason for fanned frets? Compensation tries to alleviate intonation issues by making adjustments at one end or another. Fanned frets take it further and create compensation along the length of the fretboard? Maybe. I dunno.... my head hurts now.....
 

chazmo

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Mine too!!! :)

Fan fret guitars are designed such that the scale length for each string is different, Tom. And, the placement of the frets has to accommodate that, of course.
 

GuildFS4612CE

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I've only just skimmed thru this so if it has been mentioned already please forgive me...

Re: Capos...WHERE you place the capo is often far more important than how it is adjusted...the Kysers work just fine...so do the fancy capos...most people seem to think that the place for a capo is in the middle between the 2 frets...where beginners often think the fingers belong as well...the best place is actually as close to or even on the fret...far less string stretch...far less intonation issues...and even fewer issues if you choose a capo with a radius that matches the radius of your fretboard.

You'll also play better if you place your fingers in a similar location...same reasons.
 

adorshki

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"Compensated nut" leads to all kinds of one-liners so let's be careful out there! :friendly_wink:
The world's fulla well-paid nuts and you want us to be careful?
Thankfully, everyone doesn't have to be an Olympian in order to enjoy the guitar.
Right, I'm a Budweiser man myself, if I can't get my favorite Aussie brew.
But I still don't get paid enough.
 

jcwu

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I've only just skimmed thru this so if it has been mentioned already please forgive me...

Re: Capos...WHERE you place the capo is often far more important than how it is adjusted...the Kysers work just fine...so do the fancy capos...most people seem to think that the place for a capo is in the middle between the 2 frets...where beginners often think the fingers belong as well...the best place is actually as close to or even on the fret...far less string stretch...far less intonation issues...and even fewer issues if you choose a capo with a radius that matches the radius of your fretboard.

You'll also play better if you place your fingers in a similar location...same reasons.

This is exactly what I was going to post. Took me over 20 years of playing to discover the importance of capo placement. Makes a world of difference especially with Kysers (which I use almost on all guitars except the JV52 where the neck seems just thick enough that the Kyser was hard to use).
 

Christopher Cozad

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Chazmo, I would figure to compensate a nut, you have to change the point at which is breaks over the nut. You could do it down in the nut slot somewhere, but then the remainder of the nut slot (from the break out to the fretboard) is going to interfere with the string vibration. So if you change the edge of the nut on the fretboard side, then you've compensated the string, and it is allowed to vibrate free of the remainder of the nut slot. That's what I'm thinking. Christopher, am I getting this right?? :concern:

True. Mechanically, adjusting the slot length is extremely difficult on the headstock side of the nut. I am unaware of anyone who bothers.
 

Christopher Cozad

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I just saw the compensated nut that Chris posted earlier. I've never seen that before, and frankly it makes no sense to me at all. Am I missing something? How can this be helpful to intonation? It seems to me that if you tune such a guitar open, it's going to sound wrong as soon as you fret any strings. I presume this is not for folks who do barre chords...

Sorry, I'm completely ignorant on this and I'd like to try to understand it.

Charlie, compensating the nut (EDIT: in conjunction with the saddle) addresses intonation for those who play all up and down the fretboard. So many players spend the majority of time below the 5th fret, and for them there can be a benefit from a compensated nut, but not many bother. The current, popular method of intonation an acoustic guitar is, at best, a compromise. It is impossible to perfectly intonate a guitar using this approach, so that each note plays in tune in every position up the fretboard. You can get close, and close has been good enough for most for a very long time. Getting "close" is a skill that not all possess. And it means something different for different players.

(Intonation discussions can get lengthy really quickly. I have thought about writing something up, but there are many fine articles and even books already published that I am not sure I would add worth. Maybe I could try to summarize the topic ...;~})
 
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Christopher Cozad

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...WHERE you place the capo is often far more important than how it is adjusted...the Kysers work just fine...so do the fancy capos...most people seem to think that the place for a capo is in the middle between the 2 frets...where beginners often think the fingers belong as well...the best place is actually as close to or even on the fret...far less string stretch...far less intonation issues...and even fewer issues if you choose a capo with a radius that matches the radius of your fretboard...

Agreed, Jane. The Kyser reigns supreme for single-handed usage and storage, but it can present problems with intonation in certain situations (or certain guitars), as well as really get in the way of the fretting hand if it is sitting right at the edge of the fret. For most players, it is the all-in-one solution and it works just fine, especially when used as you have described. One of the advantages of the adjustable tension (or fancy) capos is the ability to move them back away from the fretwire when more clearance is needed, while minimizing intonation issues.
 

fronobulax

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I just saw the compensated nut that Chris posted earlier. I've never seen that before, and frankly it makes no sense to me at all. Am I missing something? How can this be helpful to intonation? It seems to me that if you tune such a guitar open, it's going to sound wrong as soon as you fret any strings. I presume this is not for folks who do barre chords...

Sorry, I'm completely ignorant on this and I'd like to try to understand it.

My naive approach is to consider intonation at the 12th fret. The instrument has proper intonation if the overtone at the 12th fret is the same frequency as the fretted note there. So a compensated nut lets you adjust the vibrating length of the string. The 12th fret can't move and you presumably cannot adjust the bridge anymore so the only thing left is the nut.

I think some of the confusion comes from overloading (software term for a fellow geek) the word "intonation". When you are talking about physically setting up a guitar it means one thing but when you are talking about playing music on the guitar and being "in tune" it means something else and needs the context of "well tempered" or Western Harmony or some other understanding of the compromises between theoretical physics and musically realities.

My experience has been that "intonation" means different things when I play(ed) tuba and when I play bass guitar and the things I do to get in tune, generally and the things I do to make a specific note sound right in a particular chord or context.
 

chazmo

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Yeah, I read the setitupbetter link that Terry posted and Chris' responses on the previous page.

I'm just flabbergasted that a compensated nut could actually work. That would never have occurred to me.
 

fronobulax

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Yeah, I read the setitupbetter link that Terry posted and Chris' responses on the previous page.

I'm just flabbergasted that a compensated nut could actually work. That would never have occurred to me.

On bad days I have problems comprehending Even or Well Tempered pianos, too.
 

Christopher Cozad

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My naive approach is to consider intonation at the 12th fret. The instrument has proper intonation if the overtone at the 12th fret is the same frequency as the fretted note there. So a compensated nut lets you adjust the vibrating length of the string. The 12th fret can't move and you presumably cannot adjust the bridge anymore so the only thing left is the nut.

I think some of the confusion comes from overloading (software term for a fellow geek) the word "intonation". When you are talking about physically setting up a guitar it means one thing but when you are talking about playing music on the guitar and being "in tune" it means something else and needs the context of "well tempered" or Western Harmony or some other understanding of the compromises between theoretical physics and musically realities.

My experience has been that "intonation" means different things when I play(ed) tuba and when I play bass guitar and the things I do to get in tune, generally and the things I do to make a specific note sound right in a particular chord or context.

Jaime,

I would suggest that intonation for a fretted instrument refers to the accuracy of the pitch of a note, be it "open" or fretted. This definition easily lends itself to guitar design, construction, set up, retrofits, etc.

Temperament (Pythagorean, meantone, just, equal, etc.) refers to adjustments made over the centuries to address intonation discrepancies that were introduced as stringed instrument music moved away from single plucked notes and incorporated harmonies (e.g., chording, playing multiple notes at once, something we now take for granted on a guitar, was unthinkable at one time). There is so much to choose from today, in terms of tones, scales and octaves, and so much more accuracy is demanded from an instrument today than from those early predecessors of the guitar.

One of my favorite treatises on the topic was put together by (now retired) luthier Mike Doolin. It is still available on his web site:

Mike Doolin on Intonation
 

Christopher Cozad

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Yeah, I read the setitupbetter link that Terry posted and Chris' responses on the previous page.

I'm just flabbergasted that a compensated nut could actually work. That would never have occurred to me.

There is more than one approach to address intonation discrepancies, and range from DIY to patented processes.

Earvana has two solutions that work really well.

The Buzz Feiten approach (employed by McPherson guitars as a standard feature) gets impressively close to perfection.

ZeroGlide approaches the concept completely differently by making use of the zero fret. This changes the game by altering the notion of "open" strings versus fretted.

And we are still learning...
 

GuildFS4612CE

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Agreed, Jane. The Kyser reigns supreme for single-handed usage and storage, but it can present problems with intonation in certain situations (or certain guitars), as well as really get in the way of the fretting hand if it is sitting right at the edge of the fret. For most players, it is the all-in-one solution and it works just fine, especially when used as you have described. One of the advantages of the adjustable tension (or fancy) capos is the ability to move them back away from the fretwire when more clearance is needed, while minimizing intonation issues.

And now we have the OFFSET capo which addresses just that issue...

https://www.grotro.com/Grover/GROVER-ACCESSORIES/Ultra-Capo/GP750BL
 

GuildFS4612CE

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Yeah, I read the setitupbetter link that Terry posted and Chris' responses on the previous page.

I'm just flabbergasted that a compensated nut could actually work. That would never have occurred to me.

I met Buzzy Feiten years ago when he was just marketing his approach at a seminar...when he talked about the bridge adjustments I asked about the other end...the nut...where he explained he also made adjustments at that end.

He's hardly the first to try...you've got micro-frets, earvana, and a bunch of others...no matter what, you will not have a perfectly tuned guitar...just choose what sounds the most pleasant to your ear...and when tuning to play with others, base it on the same agreed upon main note...be it A440 or otherwise...I only use a tuner or pitchpipe note for the first note, even with a 12 string, and the rest by ear...it's pretty much selective detuning...just try tuning each note perfectly with any tuner and then try playing a chord...good luck.:friendly_wink:
 

Christopher Cozad

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