Ren leaving Guild?

[SFIV1967]

I have had my worries from the day Cordoba purchased Guild due to the fact that before that, Cordoba was really only known for making $300-$600 foreign made nylon string guitars that plastered the walls at Guitar Center.

I understand what you want to say, but...You might have to review Cordoba's history a bit more... See for instance this June 2013 article: http://www.cordobaguitars.com/blog.php?postid=1402
All done in the Cordoba Custom Shop in Oxnard: https://www.cordobaguitars.com/guitars/master
And they were there before Guild but also don't have to do with Guild, the new Guild factory is a different building just next door to the Cordoba Guitars building.



Ralf

 

[adorshki]

California recently announced much stricter environmental laws that would definitely affect any commercial operation using NC or other organic finishes. The timing is too coincidental. Maybe he just reached his saturation point.

Bernie, with all due respect, can you cite a source for that, it's news to me and I find no reference on this page:
https://www.arb.ca.gov/html/whatsnew.htm
I think you're referring to federal regs that were going into effect requiring scrubbers on any manufacturing source of combustion emissions: particulates and greenhouse gases (CO and CO2). And that's national.
The cost of retrofitting some old paper mills for example is so exorbitant that paper companies have elected to shut 'em down rather than install the scrubbers.
Regarding "organic finishes" I think you mean "organic solvents", they've had those laws about as tight as they can get for years, and it ain't about "volume" it's about pass or fail, period.
But they do seem to keep finding new sources and chemicals to add to the list and I do see a couple of references on that link I posted..

 

[adorshki]

I guess none of the custom shop guys made the transition ?

Only if you count Ren.

Guilddoba lmao that's great !
How long did NH take ?

With apologies to Frono and anybody else who might have already made these points, they're still worth repeating,
See these comments:

My guess of 500 to 1000 Orpheums is probably way high. If 5000 per year in total production at New Hartford is accurate, there would have been perhaps 7000 Guilds produced between 2/13 and 5/14.

If you generously calculate 52 weeks per year at 5 days/week, =260 production days x15 (which does ring a bell)= 3900/year, corroborating Frono's memory of less than 5000 units/year total.

2. Most of the Traditional Series designs were developed in Tacoma, and New Hartford staff had expertise to call upon, first with the D-55, when building prototypes of the D-40, D-50, D-55, F-30, F-40, F-47, F-50, F-50R, F-412 and F-512.

Ok I'm cheating on looking up start-up date in NH but I believe they didn't actually start making prototypes until mid '09 after moving into the Ovation factory, and all the expertise was from Ovation, not Tacoma transplants, and besides all that I distinctly recall a mention that all the guitars were completely re-designed such that no parts were interchangable with Tacomas.
I'm thinking it was no more than 18 months from move-in to first actual shipment of D55's.

3. What Guild has produced so far in Oxnard equates generally to the Standard Series guitars in New Hartford. And that took them two years to accomplish.

Yeah but they had to build a whole new production facility.
In fact I recall that being mentioned as one of the perks they gave Ren for his additional time: He got to design the shop entirely to his wishes.

 

[adorshki]

I'd like to disagree. My recollection is that they closed the plant first and then announced the sale of Guild. I am pretty sure that the plant employees were laid off before the Cordoba sale was announced and I do not recall that anyone was officially/publicly offered a job in Oxnard until after they were unemployed. Only matters when people are trying to chain cause and effect.

I'm recalling now they (Fender) were very coy, saying at first only that "US production of Guild guitars at New Hartford was being discontinued" so one could interpret it to mean that it might continue somewhere else, which turned out to be the case.
I'm thinking it was like less than a month between that announcement and the announcement of the sale.
I think Fender was shopping for a buyer due to their known financial difficulties and when it looked like the Cordoba deal was going to fly, they felt ok announcing the closure.
And as I mentioned previously, Sandy also made mention of cost of upgrading air quality equipment in the plant as being one consideration in the decision sell it, which probably also played a role in the decision to sell both Guild and Ovation.
Let the new owners bear the cost of upgrading.

 

[SFIV1967]

If you read "Music Trades" Magazine from July 2016 it shows on page 76 the following about the Oxnard plant: "Production is ramping up at a measured pace, with a near-term goal of 3,500 guitars annually."

Ralf

 

[adorshki]

I know many if not all hate it but I'm not apposed to Poly just because it's poly . If you have not seen some nice guitars with this finish then you should try to check them out .
My Bluerudge has no lack of volume or tone but the poly finish is thin very thin . My Epi was more like skinning a buck and you about make a rug out it .
It would interesting to research the info regarding both finishes vrs tone/performance.

In a couple of previous marathon discussion here, it had to be conceded that a good poly finish can be every bit the equal of a good NCL finish, sound wise, and at the time of comparison.
It was also widely agreed that a good poly finish will always sound just like it did when it was new, never improve with age, because it can't.
Those polymers, whether they're polyester or polyurethane, are fixed once they're catalyzed, they don't out-gas and get brittle and more resonant with age as NCL does.
AND YOU CAN'T PATCH REPAIR POLY.
That alone is enough to make me boycott it.
I consider anything that's unrepairable to be a type of rip-off, or at least a compromise in quality for a cost benefit.
That kinda thinking shouldn't apply to $800.00+ guitars.

 

[Westerly Wood]

If you read "Music Trades" Magazine from July 2016 it shows on page 76 the following about the Oxnard plant: "Production is ramping up at a measured pace, with a near-term goal of 3,500 guitars annually."

Ralf

Awesome! that is a good # to start.

 

[adorshki]

Awesome! that is a good # to start.

And without Ren hangin' 'round checkin' on every little thing they oughtta be able to double that, easy.
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:biggrin-new:

 

[Westerly Wood]

And without Ren hangin' 'round checkin' on every little thing they oughtta be able to double that, easy.
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:biggrin-new:

LOL Al! Yeah, let's move on from the nit picking shall well???!

 

[Rayk]

In a couple of previous marathon discussion here, it had to be conceded that a good poly finish can be every bit the equal of a good NCL finish, sound wise, and at the time of comparison.
It was also widely agreed that a good poly finish will always sound just like it did when it was new, never improve with age, because it can't.
Those polymers, whether they're polyester or polyurethane, are fixed once they're catalyzed, they don't out-gas and get brittle and more resonant with age as NCL does.
AND YOU CAN'T PATCH REPAIR POLY.
That alone is enough to make me boycott it.
I consider anything that's unrepairable to be a type of rip-off, or at least a compromise in quality for a cost benefit.
That kinda thinking shouldn't apply to $800.00+ guitars.

I beg to differ on being able to repair poly there's info online about doing so but Im going to do a spot repair with fiberglass resin but I'm not I hurry to do so as its on my old Ibenaz Mc 400 around the input Jack .

Oops posted by boo boo , not done Tee hee ...

Kind backwards here but to back track on Cordoba 800 price I mention they higher models
The one I was referring to is this

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GKPro?adpos=1o1&creative=55392802681&device=m&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=Cj0KEQjwpNm-BRCJ3rDNmOuKi9IBEiQAlzDJH00GxRQtk7C6RICkc0NV_JLFRQAVSZxhoUHYddfNUMMaAgh28P8HAQ

Ok back to poly , the newer poly blends allow thinner coats unlike yester year and will also allow the woods to resonate as it ages . My Blueridge poly is about as thin as anything I've ever seen you can see highs and lows of the wood grain in the Adirondack top .

Here's a good read , I just wanted to copy the point of it but it was forbidden lol

But it's still a good read .
http://proguitarshop.com/andyscorner/nitro-vs-poly

Not arguing

 

[Walter Broes]

Shame about Mr Ferguson leaving, but at 70, you can't really blame the guy for wanting to retire, right?

As for the future of Guild...I can't very well imagine Cordoba built their entire operation in Oxnard entirely depending on one 70 year old man, no offense to anyone who's 70 or over. You know what I mean. They must have at least one or some experienced knowledgeable "guitar guy(s)" working for them, no?

I've played three Oxnard-built flattops so far, and while I'm not a fan of the satin finishes, they're pretty nice - I'd even say "great" compared to similar offerings from Martin or Gibson. And other US built guitars selling at a similar price point often have satin finishes too, so it's probably just a price thing, I'd guess.

The "Westerly series" acoustics are what they are : fairly typical imports that are a good deal at the price point. Setups are typically better than a lot of similarly priced guitars.

The NS electrics I like. In my opinion and experience, there are hardly any other vintage styled guitars out there right now at the typical NS price point that are as cool.

My "cold dead hands" guitars are my Hoboken made hollowbodies. And those are not coming back, Westerly didn't build them like that, neither did Corona, Tacoma, or New Hartford. So there.

 

[adorshki]

I beg to differ on being able to repair poly there's info online about doing so but Im going to do a spot repair with fiberglass resin but I'm not I hurry to do so as its on my old Ibenaz Mc 400 around the input Jack .

No snark intended but now are you going to match the smoothness/gloss of the finishes? are you sure the fiberglass resin is compatible with the poly? I'm talking about somebody who may want to repair a major ding on the top without compromising tone, I've never seen anything here yet indicating that's "easy" . Granted this is the only place I look, most of the time.
Now if Taylor has a patch method they divulge on their site, I would consider thatto be "real" for lack of a better term at the moment.

Oops posted by boo boo , not done Tee hee ... ��

Kind backwards here but to back track on Cordoba 800 price I mention they higher models

I just kinda picked that as an arbitrary price point above which I'd expect my luthier to be able to repair a finish ding with no headache.

Ok back to poly , the newer poly blends allow thinner coats unlike yester year and will also allow the woods to resonate as it ages . My Blueridge poly is about as thin as anything I've ever seen you can see highs and lows of the wood grain in the Adirondack top .

Right we understand that, but it still don't age. It's "Forever Young" as I mentioned elsewhere.

Here's a good read , I just wanted to copy the point of it but it was forbidden lol

But it's still a good read .
http://proguitarshop.com/andyscorner/nitro-vs-poly

OK I'll read it but if I see anything corroborating my points you can be sure I'll post it all over the internet.

Not arguing ����

Well that's no fun.
:biggrin-new:

 

[guildman63]

Walter,

I'm glad to hear Oxnard knows how to build a high quality guitar. I have been optimistic anyway, but hearing it from someone who knows quality is very encouraging.

Meanwhile, the New Hartford F-50 I recently acquired is awesome!

 

[Walter Broes]

Walter,

I'm glad to hear Oxnard knows how to build a high quality guitar. I have been optimistic anyway, but hearing it from someone who knows quality is very encouraging.

Well....I've only played three (two M20's and one D20), but...so far so good, I'd say. They're clean builds, lightly braced, light weight guitars, play well, good setups, nice necks. And I had the M20 next to the Chinese built "equivalent", and there's no competition. The Oxnard guitar sounded a LOT better, it wasn't subtle.

 

[adorshki]

OK I'll read it but if I see anything corroborating my points you can be sure I'll post it all over the internet.

http://proguitarshop.com/andyscorner/nitro-vs-poly
OK, read it, and other than my disagreement about his calling nitrocellulose* a "resin", it seems there's no mention of "ease of repair" between the 2.
Granted he does emphasize the "durabilty" of poly so maybe the idea is that poly'll never get damaged enough to need repair?
I am tryin' to be open minded here, but he also confirms my point that once poly is catalyzed it's completely permanently hard, forever.
He even said it, "poly guitars are sipping from the fountain of youth" whereas nitro continuously evolves over time.
I'm willing to leave it at the old adage:
"You pays your money and you takes your choice"
Make mine lacquer.
:friendly_wink:
(and I have no doubt your Blueridge sounds every bit as good as you say it does)


*and to be fair Wiki says a modern usage includes "nearly any component of liquid that dries to a hard lacquer finish"

 

[Lacidar]

Thank You, txbumper57!

I see that this is your first post so let me say Welcome to LTG Lacidar! I would recommend calling Guild's Customer service number on their website. You can see if they have any of the New Hartford made F512's still on the shelf at the factory. If they do, you should be able to purchase it through a current Guild Dealer. If not you can place an order like Chazmo stated but I honestly think it will be a few months before they are even making the F512 again if that soon. The estimated arrival dates on sites like elderly and musicians friend have changed several times due to delays in production. Guild has updated estimate prices for the F512 and other traditional models they are planning on making on their website under USA Guilds.

They don't come up for sale that often but if you are lucky enough to find a New Hartford made F512 (2009-2014) used or NOS I would suggest jumping on it if it is in good shape. They are truly top notch in every way possible. Best of luck in your search and again Welcome!

By the way your first few posts are monitored by Moderators to make sure you are not a Robot so don't worry if your posts don't show up right away, They will after a few hours or so.

TX

Thank you very much for your kind welcome, TX, and for your valuable comments, too. In my hunt for this unique and amazing instrument (F-512) I'm pursuing a few different angles simultaneously (alas, my efforts are greatly complicated by my living on the moon [I've been working in the Middle East for quite some time now]). I'll report back here when I have substantive feedback or interesting information to provide LTG readers and forum members. Thank you once again, TX, for your insights and for your warm welcome. Both are highly appreciated...

 

[ladytexan]

Guild and Cordoba will surely miss Ren. And, so will we. When Ren was at the LMG events in New Hartford, he was always available to talk about this, that, and the other about building guitars. He really is an amazing acoustic engineer. He is, genuinely, a nice guy. Wishing him the best of luck on his retirement. Looking forward to hearing who is going to take his place.

P.S. Very thankful I bought my Orpheums. :frog:

 

[Lacidar]

Lacidar,

Welcome to LTG. I don't think any of us has specific information on this. My guess is that, yes, MF is wildly optimistic about this. Perhaps they can still order NOS versions from CMG that were built in NH, but I don't know. Since we haven't heard anything yet, your best bet is to go used. That said, placing an order with a Guild dealer will potentially get the ball rolling.

Hi, Chazmo. Thanks for your welcome and your advice. Each sincerely appreciated.

 

[kostask]

I beg to differ on being able to repair poly there's info online about doing so but Im going to do a spot repair with fiberglass resin but I'm not I hurry to do so as its on my old Ibenaz Mc 400 around the input Jack .

Oops posted by boo boo , not done Tee hee ... ��

It is possible to repair poly. Taylor has a course on how to do it with their finish. Doing it without leaving any witness lines is a whole different story. It is extremely difficult. Poly finisheS, after the catalyst has done its job, cannot be un-catalysed. Nitro, when repaired, literally dissolves and re-dries or hardens. The new nitro cannot be separated from the old nitro. The repair on a poly finish, is sort of like the patches that they put on ruts/potholes on roads. Both are asphalt; both are black (more or less), and they are NOT one and the same. Over and above that, do you honestly beiieve that any luthier, will have the ability to invest in the various different solvents, UV lamps, and poly finishes to match all the various finishes used by the different companies? That is extremely unrealistic. Taylor, being the size that they are, can offer those courses and tools. Do you think that other companies will (Yamaha, Blueridge/SAGA, etc.)? And by the way, all poly finishes are not chemically the same, because unlike nitro, there are many types of poly (polyester, polyurethane, UV catalyzed, chemically catalyzed, and so on). When you throw around "poly", undestand that you are talking about a vast spectrum of finishes, not just one, that are chemcially extremely diverse.

.......
Ok back to poly , the newer poly blends allow thinner coats unlike yester year and will also allow the woods to resonate as it ages . My Blueridge poly is about as thin as anything I've ever seen you can see highs and lows of the wood grain in the Adirondack top .

Here's a good read , I just wanted to copy the point of it but it was forbidden lol

But it's still a good read .
http://proguitarshop.com/andyscorner/nitro-vs-poly

Not arguing ����

Its nice that the poly finish on your Blueridge is clear enough, and maybe thin enough, to allow you to feel the wood grain. Know that, however thin your Poly finish is, it is thicker than a good Nitro finish would be. Poly finishes cannot even be put through a spray gun that is set up for nitro. It may appear to be thinner, but it isn't. It also won't get any thinner as time goes on. Once the catalyst is consumed in the process of hardening the poly finish, the poly finish is done, it won't change chemically in any way. Nitro continually outgasses, getting thinner with the passage of time. The other part of this is that nitro also crystallizes, meaning the out-gassing of the solvents leaves solids behind, These solids tend to improve the tone of the guitar. While it may look to be very hard, poly is actually somewhat flexible, and doesn't change over time as discussed above. This acts as a very slight tonal absorption. That will NOT get better with time.

Ask any great hand builder if, regulations permitting, if they would prefer to shoot poly or nitro. I guarantee that the answer, 100% of the time will be nitro. The move to poly was forced by two major things: how fast the guitar could be assembled (no guitars sitting around for the nitro to dry, catalyse it, and straight to the buffer. ), and VOC regulations. Note the lack of any tonal considerations. Everything to do with poly finishes is related to factors other than tone.

 

[SFIV1967]

...however thin your Poly finish is, it is thicker than a good Nitro finish would be. Poly finishes cannot even be put through a spray gun that is set up for nitro. It may appear to be thinner, but it isn't. It also won't get any thinner as time goes on.

Well, according to info from Taylor the new guitars they introduced 2015 come with a 3.5mils thin finish, their standard gloss models have 6mils.
They compare it with a typical Nitrocellulose finish which is 6-8mils when new ! A french-polished shellack is only 1-2mils to compare. So here you go. 3.5mils for poly vs 6-8mils for Nitro! (o.k., nitro gets thinner over time which poly doesn't). But it's not true that you can't apply poly thinner than nitro and if you talk about a new guitar poly is thinner than nitro in the case of the Taylor higer end models!
You can read about this on page 11 here: http://www.elixirstrings.com/hdlight/PDF/New_800s_Section.pdf
Ralf