Tone difference between NY and Hoboken eras

die Bullen

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Since getting my '61 X-175 back from its neck reset I have been playing the guitar quite a bit acoustically as well as through an amp. What I am noticing is even acoustically there is a huge difference between the 2 NY era Guilds I have ('53 X-150 and '55 X-175) and this Hoboken-era guitar. The NY era guitars have a very distinctive pleasing woody sound; the '61's sound is nice but hugely different- definitely more modern.

Why such a huge difference in tone, even acoustically? Did they use different woods in Hoboken than in NYC or was there a huge construction change?
 

Walter Broes

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No experience with NYC Guilds, but enough with Hoboken ones to know you can't generalise about those either - my '59/60 X175 is an acoustic guitar compared to my later ones.

The fact that there's a lot of interest in the year by year specs and the collector mentality makes for people like us knowing the specs of various models through the years etc..., and I think it makes us expect too much consistency from these guitars, as in "this year, those specs", etc...

But I think in practice, guitar factories went with what was on hand, wood wise, and they were getting orders out the door. My point being, I don't think you can really generalise about these the way we tend to do.
 

die Bullen

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To be sure they used whatever they had but I have to say that the difference is very stark. The condition of my X-175 is definitely "case queen"- the body finish is stunningly shiny for a guitar of its age- I wonder if that has something to do with it too? My NY models are not what I'd call battered but they certainly don't look like the '61.
 

iismet

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IMO- Their voices never open unless they have been played.
 

Walter Broes

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die Bullen said:
T The condition of my X-175 is definitely "case queen"- the body finish is stunningly shiny for a guitar of its age- I wonder if that has something to do with it too? My NY models are not what I'd call battered but they certainly don't look like the '61.
Nah. My earlier one is much cleaner than either of my later ones, and it has a louder acoustic voice, my fairly beat-up '62 is a rock monster in comparison. So much for that theory.. :wink:
 

die Bullen

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I will say too that in general I find the Franz P-90's sound MUCH better in the neck position. The x175's bridge pickup sounds okay but the neck sounds much better- but just my opinion of course.
 

Walter Broes

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It's a glorious tone, but I'm as big a fan of the combined setting, ànd the bridge pickup.

I will say it takes a while before I get one of these guitars dialed in *exactly* the way I want them - these pickups (like a lot of pickups, especially "more primitive" ones) are extremely sensitive to their height in relation to the strings.

Here's some bridge pickup on the battered '62 I love so dearly.
 

die Bullen

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you are 100% right about the pole piece height being extremely sensitive. I have the '53 and '55 dialed in as I like them but I'm not there on the '61 yet. But in general I am a neck pickup guy even with my telecasters and my Jazzmaster. I rarely use bridge pickups in general. I don't love the bridge pickup on the '61 but maybe I haven't found the right height yet.
 

Walter Broes

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die Bullen said:
you are 100% right about the pole piece height being extremely sensitive.
I was talking about pickup height - on a dual Franz equipped hollowbody, if you don't have the neck pickup set fairly low, and the lead pickup relatively high, the neck pickup is going to overpower the bridge pickup and have twice as much bass, making the lead pickup seem thin, and small sounding in comparison. There's more room for adjustment to the pickup than the non-adjustable cover would have you think at first sight.
 

die Bullen

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I never knew you could adjust the pickup height at all- I thought all you could do are the pole pieces how do you do that?
 

Walter Broes

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die Bullen said:
I never knew you could adjust the pickup height at all- I thought all you could do are the pole pieces how do you do that?
This is what a Franz pickup looks like removed from the guitar (this is a slightly later one, on earlier ones the bobbin will look different, but the baseplate is the same, and that's what this is about)

Franzarchtoppickupnocoverbottom-sid.jpg



It attaches to the body of the guitar with two very small screws that hook into the indentations you see on both short ends of the baseplate. Unlike a Gibson P90, these are not the same screws that hold the cover on - those are a separate set of screws, unrelated to the pickup.

To change the height of the pickup, you need to (carefully!) remove the pickup cover first. Can't stress "carefully" enough - sometimes, the covers shrink, and the polepieces get stuck in them. If you have the impression the fit for the polepieces is tight in the holes in the cover, remove the polepieces (by unscrewing them) first, cover second.

Once the cover is off, you can proceed to take the pickup out of the guitar by unscrewing the two screws that hold the pickup to the guitar's body.
Then, by very carefully and gently bending (with small pliers) the two short ends ("tabs") of the baseplate the pickup "sits" on, you can lower or raise the pickup quite a bit.
I've found this necessary to get good balance between them on all the dual-pickup Franz-equipped hollowbodies I've owned.

It's my experience that it's smart to start with the lead pickup, and get that to where you get optimum sound and output for your application, then proceed to the neck pickup, and balance that with what you're getting from the lead pickup.
On any guitar, but even more on full-hollowbodies, the neck position pickup is seeing more string energy, so with a pickup at a given distance, it will be louder than the lead pickup. If you start out with getting maximum sound and output from the neck pickup by adjusting it, you'll often find you ran out of adjustment range with the lead pickup, and it'll end up quieter and smaller sounding no matter how you adjust it.

As a general rule, getting the pickup body (as opposed to just the polepieces) closer to the strings will result in a stronger output, and a fatter, bigger tone. You can then adjust the string-to string balance with the individual polepieces. Not raising the pickup body, but just the poles, might make your pickup a little bit louder, but it will sound thinner and weaker than if you raise the coil closer to the strings.

There's are limits to "close to the strings" of course, the first one physical, dictated by the height of your pickup cover, but on my own guitars, I've found the Franz pickup covers to be plenty tall.
The second limit is - get the pickup too close to the strings, and it'll start sounding funny, and having too much output, to where it sounds blatty and will overdrive anything you plug it into.

No need to be afraid of magnetic string pull with Franz pickups like you would with typical Fender single coil pickups, or DeArmond pickups : the polescrews are steel, and the magnets are at a safe distance of the strings, under the coil.


If you're handy and not afraid to tinker with guitars, while you have the pickups out of the guitar, you might as well make them reverse wound/reverse polarity so the "both pickups on" middle switch setting is humcancelling. Some guitars already come like this by accident, most don't.
What you do for reversing the polarity on one of the pickups is :
-take out the screws that hold the coil to the baseplate. You find these on the underside of the baseplate.

-carefully slide out the magnets, remembering their orientation

-turn both magnets so that the narrow side that was facing the coil is now on the outside of the pickup -----> you want to just turn them 180°, keeping the top side top. You don't want to reverse them so the top side become the under side.
You can reassemble the pickup now.

-With the magnets reversed, on one pickup, it will now be out of phase with the other one, and sound funny. To fix that, you need to reverse the wires coming out of the coil, going into that metal tab you see in the pic. (the tab that the guitar's wiring harness connects to inside the guitar). This step, of course, requires a soldering iron. If you're doing all this with the pickups still connected to the guitar's harness - cover your guitar with a rag or two - you don't want to drip hot solder on your precious old Guild!!!

-if you've done these steps right, you now have a pickup set that will be humcancelling with both pickups selected.

Sorry for the long-winded post.
 

Ian

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I dont venture too often (but I've got a Gretsch on it's way, so thought I would come for a look...), it's amazing what you learn on this forum. Interesting info about the NY and hoboken era's too: All that inconsistency makes it a real gamble purchasing from afar doesn't it ?

Cheers, Ian
 

die Bullen

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Ian- any guitar bought and not played first is a huge gamble- even new ones. Any brand has the occasional lemon, even when new, and old ones can have all kinds of issues or replacement parts that mess up the guitar.. Luckily I didn't get burned on anything I bought without playing first- but I would usually only do this with something that is extremely difficult to find- like my '53.

Walter- thank you for that post- it is extremely informative. I'd have to kick around if I'd be brave enough to do this adjustment though, I really don't like taking things apart- especially when I can't blame someone else in case it all goes wrong. But the way you laid this adjustment out is world class, sir. You can teach an old bull new tricks!

dB
 

littlesongs

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Mr. Broes really gave us some great insight on setting up the Franz! Thank you kind sir!

Ian said:
All that inconsistency makes it a real gamble purchasing from afar doesn't it ?

Cheers, Ian

Obviously it is best to have a guitar in your hands before investing, but I've yet to come across somebody who got a well-kept vintage archtop that was a "dog" with the Guild name on the headstock.

Yes, there is a maddening inconsistency (for the collectors), but I think the fact that no two are exact twins is what makes Guilds so fun. Each individual instrument is truly an individual. I like noticing and embracing the quirks a lot more than the rigid uniformity of most post-CNC stuff, but that might just be me.

My two guitars are obviously made by human beings, but they have virtually identical sunburst finishes, practically carbon copy necks, and even the same handmade asymmetry in their overlays down to the black lines in their Chesterfields. The "eyeballing" during construction that Hans describes is also obvious in the neck inlays to my eye, but the same unique inconsistencies are consistent in both guitars. Even though they are twins in almost every way and only separated by 413 serial numbers, there are subtle and not so subtle differences: One headstock is slightly wider than the other. "Carol" has a thinline harp tailpiece while "Carla" has a full-bodied tailpiece that was trimmed to fit a thinline. Like Walter said, the parts bins often dictated what ended up on a guitar.
 

dapmdave

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Walter Broes said:
It's a glorious tone, but I'm as big a fan of the combined setting, ànd the bridge pickup.

I will say it takes a while before I get one of these guitars dialed in *exactly* the way I want them - these pickups (like a lot of pickups, especially "more primitive" ones) are extremely sensitive to their height in relation to the strings.

Here's some bridge pickup on the battered '62 I love so dearly.

That's great rockin' tone, Walter. Meaty, big and bouncy, I'd say. Nice shirt, too. 8)

Dave :D
 
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