why do guilds project so well?

[jimistone]

I had a pickup installed in my DV52 last week (sounds fantastic!). When I went to pick up my guitar I played some vintage Gibsons (70's era hummingbird and Gibson SJ). The DV52 was twice as loud as either one. I know that a real low filed down bridge will not help projection but it was not shaved down real low on the 2 gibsons...plenty left.

It's unbelieveable that a guild would be twice as loud as a southern jumbo IMO. The owner of the shop was surprized as well and thought my guitar was pretty darned nice.
Guild D-25's have alot of volume too. What is it that makes the guilds project so much volume?

 

[jcwu]

I've had similar responses to my DV52 as well. Although, to be fair, maybe it's the DV52 that's louder than usual, and not the Gibson jumbos that aren't loud. My DV52 is louder than my Guild jumbo, the JV52, also.

 

[spiderman]

I agree with the assessment of dreads vs. jumbos. By far and away my loudest guitar is the D25M, although the

I concur with the previous assessments. By far and away my loudest and most in your face guitar is the D25M , although the Martin can give it a run for the money but is more balanced. Surprisingly the JF-55 doesn't come even close, I call it my Orchestra model :lol:
I suspect for the 25's the arched back has a lot to do with it. For those with mahogany tops that probably contributes. I asked my luthier how long it takes for mahogany to mellow, his response was "Does mahogany ever mellow?"


Harmony H-173 bought in 1960 (retired)
Alvarez AC60S 2008
Eastman AC320ce 2008 BOOKMATCHING BOOKMATCHING WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING BOOKMATCHING!
http://www.massstreetmusic.com/store/sh ... id-Cutaway
GAD-JF30E(blonde) 2008
JF55 1997
D25M 1974
Martin Grand J35E 2009













martin is loud but more balanced.


Harmony H-173 bought in 1960 (retired)
Alvarez AC60S 2008
Eastman AC320ce 2008 BOOKMATCHING BOOKMATCHING WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING BOOKMATCHING!
http://www.massstreetmusic.com/store/sh ... id-Cutaway
GAD-JF30E(blonde) 2008
JF55 1997
D25M 1974
Martin Grand J35E 2009

 

[gilded]

With respect, Gentlemen, I don't think it's a dread vs. jumbo issue, at least this time. I think it's a 'how much '70's Gibson flat-tops suck' issue.

Not to take anything away from the DV52, but '70's Gibson bracing performs poorly compared to older models. Around 1969, Gibson bracing changed to the infamous 'Double X'. That means a second 'small x brace' sits where flat-top guitars traditionally have two small diagonal tone braces, between the bridge and the end block. Ugh, not good!

Also, the main X brace isn't really a 'true X' (two long pieces that notch in the middle), it's one long 'I' brace with two half-sized braces on either side of it, with a cotton patch over the intersection of the bracing so you can't look inside with a mirror and tell that the bracing is not the way it was in the '50s. Additionally, the bridge plates on those guitars are usually huge. That kills the top sound as much as anything.

Finally, DV52 have scalloped bracing on the tone bars and the rear of the X brace, right? Gibson flat-tops stopped having scalloped bracing around '55 or '56.

There are some good sounding Humming Birds, etc., from the '70's, but that ain't the best era for Gibsons. When they sound good, it's a testament to a guitar that is built with some mighty good wood, as opposed to an enlightened design.

 

[NEONMOONY]

Man, this sight is like going to guitar school!

 

[dapmdave]

I wonder a bit about the contribution of the arched back, versus other factors. My D-30 is arched, but it's not especially loud. Undoubtedly sweet, but rather soft and mellow. But the arched back D-25 rocks the house.

Mahogany vs. Maple?

Dave

 

[dreadnut]

I don't know either, but I love it! Another one that projects like crazy is the Tacoma D-50, at least every one that I played.

 

[bluesypicky]

If you'd leave the answer to "Guild's mystery", I would be perfectly fine with it. :wink:
However I think as Dave pointed out, that wood is the main contributing factor to volume and projection. (BTW nice sig, Dave! :mrgreen: )
As I threaded before, the difference made by the arched back on the D25 wasn't characterized by a bigger volume (when compared to the flat back D25) but maybe a better balance. That said, should that slight difference between the two be attributed to the arched back or the spruce vs. hog top?.....
Who owns an arched back/hog top one to get that straight? :lol:

 

[bek]

I have a D25, arched-back, mahogany top. It's maybe not as bright as, say, a D28 Martin, but it's thicker. It likes a heavy pick attack; hit it and it will hit back, fat and loud! There's a density in its tone that I don't hear in most guitars. I think of it as a Gibson among Fenders. I pay the price a bit, as I keep the action a bit high so I can pick and strum harder without rattling much. It's worth it.

 

[killdeer43]

Can't nail down all the reasons why from a technical perspective, but my D25M consistently amazes me with its projection/tone/balance, etc. Fingers, flatpick? Same/same.
I've had my D50 for over 20 years and it's a very special, great-sounding guitar, but the 25 is slowly but surely making its way to the top of my personal heap.
Many people comment on both the sound and the good looks. It's a real attention grabber!

Why does it project so well? I'm just lucky, I guess.
I had a D15 arched back/all hog that didn't project as well, so go figure.

Put me down for 2 cents,
Joe

 

[bluesypicky]

Why does it project so well? I'm just lucky, I guess.
Joe

I don't think you are Joe. Well.... you are a lucky man (I saw a pic of your wife :lol: ) but pretty much every D25 owner is praising it's volume/projection the same way, so I don't think it's luck, let's just call it the D25 mystery!! :mrgreen:

 

[evenkeel]

With respect, Gentlemen, I don't think it's a dread vs. jumbo issue, at least this time. I think it's a 'how much '70's Gibson flat-tops suck' issue.

Very good point. 70's vintage Flatops are a real low point in Gibson history. That was the Norlin era. Nashville production, over built, generally not so good guitars.

In the thread on the Orlando show I noted how a new Bozeman built J45 was able to cut thru all the show ruckus while a Guild Jumbo could not. Not disparaging the Guild, but it did not have the same presence as the Gibby.

 

[killdeer43]

I don't think you are Joe. Well.... you are a lucky man (I saw a pic of your wife :lol: ) but pretty much every D25 owner is praising it's volume/projection the same way, so I don't think it's luck, let's just call it the D25 mystery!! :mrgreen:

My wife said to thank you, Pascal. :wink:

But further to the D25, I just think that the model is in the process of acquiring a mystique of its own....or maybe it already has.
I did have some work done on mine and it only made it sound/play better than before.

Joe

 

[Dr Izza Plumber]

Guitar projection has more to do with individual characteristics of a particular instrument's wood, & age, IMO.

When comparing an aged Guild DV-52 against newer built Gibson gits (for sound intensity or volume),
that's really not an accurate comparison. Those Gibson gits may very well be in their infancy regarding the subject matter at hand.
Plus, We become accustomed to particular tones associated with Our guitars, and if You play Your Guilds most of the time (which You should), You're going to favor their tone.
Remember that a guitar frequently played will have better tone and volume than a closet queen, or a wall hanger.

My Tacoma D55 is fairly loud, but no where near as loud as either My JF30-12, or My Taylor 855ce, both jumbo gits.
Also, I have a GAD 50 that trounces nearly everything. It has put away a few Martins (thought to be potent),
though the GAD appears normal in construction. I have yet to find another guitar which can outgun My GAD50
for shear volume.........now tone-wise, that's another subject.

Guitars, brands, body sizes/styles/finishes, 6/12 string, plus bass gits, electric gits etc???
For me, it's ALL good!

 

[killdeer43]

Guitars, brands, body sizes/styles/finishes, 6/12 string, plus bass gits, electric gits etc???
For me, it's ALL good!

That ("It's ALL good!") will be the essential bottom line on this thread.
Play 'em, enjoy 'em! We're all living the good life....until a better alternative comes along, that is! :wink:

Joe

 

[spiderman]

Apologies for a somewhat garbled earlier post, at 2 AM I must have nodded off on the return key :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Harmony H-173 bought in 1960 (retired)
Alvarez AC60S 2008
Eastman AC320ce 2008 BOOKMATCHING BOOKMATCHING WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING BOOKMATCHING!
http://www.massstreetmusic.com/store/sh ... id-Cutaway
GAD-JF30E(blonde) 2008
JF55 1997
D25M 1974
Martin Grand J35E 2009

 

[J45dale]

I have 4 Dreds, and I will only compare MY Dreds, 3 of which are Mahogany and Spruce, but from 3 different builders.
My D25 is the loudest.
The Guild D55 has a lush, warm, balanced Rosewood/ Spruce tone. Easy to play. Not a banjo killer, but what a rich sound! As a Rosewood it should not be in this comparison.
The Norlin Era Gibson J45 has a warm, woody, Mahogany tone,(38 years old), a easy to play folk sounding guitar. Not as loud as the new Bozeman produced, scalloped braced models. As stated above this is a non scalloped, double X brace model. They Just a voice of their own, which is sweet.
The Martin D-18AG is loud and woody. Sounds like a Mahogany/ Spruce, fowared shifted, scalloped braced D-18 should, a great" pick a lick" Bluegrass guitar.
The 85 model Guild arch-back D25SB is my loudest, it's a in your face, dry, Mahogany tone Dred. It has a raw, bluesy tone, with more bass than my other Mahogany Dreds. I think it is the perfect bar-gig Dred. Great for picking or struming, and will not be buried in a crowd.The odd part is that it is stright braced. I have to think it is the arch back, as that is the largest structural difference.
This is just my feelings, on my guitars.
Now I like them all, and feel each has their own place for different types of music. None are for sale.
I will not discuss my small body guitars at this time. 8)
Dale.

 

[adorshki]

When I was reading this I was reminded of Telenator's thread "Rebuilding my D15M". He mentions 2 things I suspect have greater relevance than we might think; First, there's a brace around the soundhole of the old top he's replacing and he says in his research Guild is one of the few to do this. While I'm sure its main purpose is to stiffen up the area around the sound hole, I wonder if that brace causes the rest of the top to vibrate more by some quirk of physics? Also, and perhaps even more relevant, he states that his new top's soundhole is only 3-3/4" inch in diameter but that the orginal Guild soundhole was 4". Just food for thought. 8)
Personally I always thought it was because they built 'em with the soundholes unplugged and on the front... :lol:

 

[walrus]

One more example, but no "technical" data:

My D-64 is a maple dread, flat-backed, and the loudest guitar I've heard. Very balanced sound, too. Very broken in and "opened up" after 25 years of playing. I'm always being complimented on it's sound (not necessarily my playing!).

It replaced a Martin D-35 I had, top of the line at the time, and there is simply no comparison. The Guild blew it away in all categories including price - the Guild was cheaper!

walrus

 

[Sats]

Interesting question. No obvious answer(s). But the reason I'm in this group is because of the sonic characteristics seemingly inherent in Guild acoustics. There is, in my mind, a certain "presence" to the Guild sound.
I've owned a '68 Gibson SJ, a '68 Hummingbird and a '68 Heritage (all within the "good" years for Gibby acoustics: bracing and bridge-plate wise), and while they all had that "Gibson" sound to them (to me, woody and mid-rangy – well except for the Heritage, which was brighter), they are quite different than the Guilds I own (D30, DV52 and D66).
I was a definite Gibson fan and had little familiarity with Guild acoustics, but having encountered the D66 I was amazed at the bell-like tone of the instrument (granted a fine way to be introduced to the brand). I acquired the D30 next (a '75), I was completely enchanted with it's sound. My DV52 is a different animal, darker in my opinion, but they all have a certain "articulation" to them – again, a "presence".
Perhaps the attributes I'm describing are different than "projection", but then again, maybe not. I do not take projection as necessarily meaning just "loud", but possibly more "discernible". Guilds have that to me. Is it the quality of tone woods? Scale length? Bracing? Care and feeding/condition of the instrument? Just whack bias? I don't know, but to me it is something, something about them Guilds...

John

I'm curious if anyone might comment about a G41. Now these are described as a) big, and b) loud; but I've not played one. I wonder how one of these fits within my comments and the general nature of this thread.

Also, I'm gonna get a D25...