why do guilds project so well?

[West R Lee]

With respect, Gentlemen, I don't think it's a dread vs. jumbo issue, at least this time. I think it's a 'how much '70's Gibson flat-tops suck' issue.

Not to take anything away from the DV52, but '70's Gibson bracing performs poorly compared to older models. Around 1969, Gibson bracing changed to the infamous 'Double X'. That means a second 'small x brace' sits where flat-top guitars traditionally have two small diagonal tone braces, between the bridge and the end block. Ugh, not good!

Also, the main X brace isn't really a 'true X' (two long pieces that notch in the middle), it's one long 'I' brace with two half-sized braces on either side of it, with a cotton patch over the intersection of the bracing so you can't look inside with a mirror and tell that the bracing is not the way it was in the '50s. Additionally, the bridge plates on those guitars are usually huge. That kills the top sound as much as anything.

Finally, DV52 have scalloped bracing on the tone bars and the rear of the X brace, right? Gibson flat-tops stopped having scalloped bracing around '55 or '56.

There are some good sounding Humming Birds, etc., from the '70's, but that ain't the best era for Gibsons. When they sound good, it's a testament to a guitar that is built with some mighty good wood, as opposed to an enlightened design.

Harry,

What year model was your old Gibson I played at the studio? Nice sounding old guitar.

West

 

[gilded]

What year model was your old Gibson I played at the studio? Nice sounding old guitar.
West

Say West!

That guitar is a '59 J-50. I bought it in need of repair 5 or 6 years ago, maybe more. The back had been a little wet and was coming off. When my repairman took it off, he called me up and told me to come over to look at the X bracing. That's when I discovered that the X bracing on some of the Gibsons was actually the two short pieces/one long piece. Even back in the fifties, sheesh!!

In fact, we took the bracing out and re-braced it. We put in high, thinner bracing like you find in the WWII era 'Banner Gibsons' (scalloped, of course) and put it all back together, along with a neck re-set, new Brazilian bridge, fret job, etc. I still have the old bracing in a drawer somewhere. If you ever come back to the studio, I'll show it to you!

It's a good guitar. Probably doesn't sound like a '59 model anymore, but it's a good sound nevertheless.

Harry

 

[West R Lee]

You did show it to me Harry, I played it a bit........loved it.

West

 

[jimistone]

There are some interesting responses on this thread and I have really enjoyed the disscussion.

But, after it's all said and done...I'm just going to chaulk it up to mojo. Guilds have the mojo baby! 8)

I'm just glad that I started frequenting this sight before I bought my last acoustic guitar.
I'm going to chaulk that up to luck because I got lucky. I was lucky my interest in Guild guitars was aroused (by a Harmony Central user review). I was lucky that there is a sight dedicated to Guild guitars frequented by very knowledgeable and helpful people. I was lucky that drednut pm'd me, and after hearing what I was looking for, and pointed me in the direction of the DV52. Lastly I was lucky to find a DV52 in mint condition that sounds fantastic and has tons of volume.

I guess I have just gotten used to the volume of the DV52 and am just shocked at the lack thereof in most other guitars that I pick up and strum.

 

[gilded]

What year model was your old Gibson I played at the studio? Nice sounding old guitar.
West

....I still have the old bracing in a drawer somewhere. If you ever come back to the studio, I'll show it to you!

It's a good guitar. Probably doesn't sound like a '59 model anymore, but it's a good sound nevertheless.

Harry

You did show it to me Harry, I played it a bit........loved it.

West

Hey Buddy, I didn't write very clearly. I remember showing you the guitar, but not the old bracing!! So, if you ever come back to the studio, well, I'll show you the 'old bracing', which is sitting in a drawer!

And to the original poster, I'd like to try a DV52, as well. You make a mighty compelling argument for playing one!

Harry aka gilded

 

[devellis]

I'm certainly no expert, on Guilds or otherwise, but let me share a few thoughts.

Projection is usually a combination of overall volume, location of maximal volume across the audio spectrum, and absence/presence of overtones. The sounds we are likely to perceive as loudest are those that are most distinct at a certain range of frequencies. Lots of overtones will often reduce perceived projection because each individual note isn't as distinct.

Construction factors that can influence these aural characteristics relate primarily to top construction and back woods. Harder, more reflective back woods tend to increase projection by bouncing the sound of the top wood without adding much coloration. A stiff, laminated maple, arched back would seem to be a highly reflective surface that should generally project the voice of the guitar's top very well. Rosewood probably adds the most coloration and maple the least (although many other factors come into play). Tops that are relatively stiff and thin (their thinness allowable, in part, by their strength and stiffness) can project well, depending on bracing. Lighter bracing will tend to accentuate the bass response (think of scalloped Martin dreads with their boomy voice). Bracing that maintains top stiffness without dampening or inhibiting top movement will tend to enhance projection. So, bracing choices (number, location, mass) can sort of tune a guitar to have maximal strength at specific frequencies. Maximizing mid-to-treble frequencies may enhance projection. Finally, denser materials (like ebony bridges) will tend to have a dampening effect (relative to rosewood, for example).

So, certain combinations of materials and structural designs will yield different voices, some being characterized by strong projection. Guild fits that last category. As for why, my guess is that it's more complex than any one design feature or material. Guitars' voices are really the result of many factors all working together. Guild -- by luck, design, or some of both -- found a recipe that gives good projection (better in some models than others) and it's the sum total of those building choices that is responsible. At least that's my take on it.

 

[dreadnut]

I agree the D-25 is the best all around gigging guitar. It defnitely has a loud bottom end, more so than the DV-52. It works real well in situations where we have 2 or 3 guitars and no bass, I can provide the transitions between chords on the bottom 4 strings

I also believe that the arched back & spruce top are the major contributors to the tone of these dreads. I sat down and compared the equivalent mahogany Martin and Gibson at the same store in '76 when I walked out with the D-25. I went in there intent on walking out with a Martin The D-25 was a real sweet deal for Guild's "entry-level" dread. I have lots of stories about people coming up and complimenting me on my D-25, that's also a real testimony to its sound.

As for the DV-52, it's equal to the D-25 in volume, not quite as bassy, but very balanced across all 6 strings, and it's just got that rosewood/spruce/scalloped bracing sound. This guitar was just a great combination of woods and bracing, the top is really lively. Very nice for playing with the bluegrass band, also great for just acoustic singing and picking. Compares a lot to the Tacoma built D-50's I played at Elderly, every one was a real peach

 

[adorshki]

Guild -- by luck, design, or some of both -- found a recipe that gives good projection (better in some models than others) and it's the sum total of those building choices that is responsible. At least that's my take on it.

Dev, I enjoy your posts very much. My personal pet theory has been that with Guild intentional design plays much more of a role in producing "the Guild sound" since it is so consistently cited across so many styles of instruments. I do have to temper that with the observation that some things I thought were intentional have been said to be pure chance or even driven by economy by a couple of our members who were actually there at Westerly, like how and with what the laminated backs were made, and why they were applied to the D25.

 

[JimbowF212]

I had a pickup installed in my DV52 last week (sounds fantastic!). When I went to pick up my guitar I played some vintage Gibsons (70's era hummingbird and Gibson SJ). The DV52 was twice as loud as either one. I know that a real low filed down bridge will not help projection but it was not shaved down real low on the 2 gibsons...plenty left.

It's unbelieveable that a guild would be twice as loud as a southern jumbo IMO. The owner of the shop was surprized as well and thought my guitar was pretty darned nice.
Guild D-25's have alot of volume too. What is it that makes the guilds project so much volume?

I personally think that what you are hearing is the difference Guild takes in making a quality guitar. I also feel that like Martin, Guild knows how to make a guitar top, something I think Gibson either never knew or forgot. JMHO!!!! I used to help my dad do repairs and Gibson's were the second highest amount of his repairs, the highest was the el cheapos promanent in our area, He only ever worked on two Martins and not a single Guild. He did repairs from 1992 - 2005. BTW after helping on those Gibsons and seeing how poorly they were built, I wouldn't spend my money on one. Also JMHO.

 

[gilded]

Well, Jim, I guess that means you'll just have
to send all those crummy Gibsons down to me.

 

[taabru45]

I hope Biker Doc isn't reading this.... :lol: :lol: Steffan

 

[Roman]

Gosh, you don't suppose the electronics on particular installation might be a bit supperior to others? No! The Guild has to be the deciding factor. Don't get me wrong (or go ahead if you want to) I love my D-55 and wouldn't trade it for just about anything, but, please . . . Loyalty is a good thing but give me a break! :roll: