Taylor double-compensated 12 string saddle

[rmoretti49]

Just wondering if anyone has tried installing one of these on a Guild 12 string.

 

[plaidseason]

Are the same slot width and radius?

 

[rmoretti49]

Well, I guess I was just being lazy posting the question. I don't have the answers to your questions (the all important questions). I was hoping maybe someone had tried the Taylor saddle, and that the answers to your questions would emerge in the discussion.

 

[chazmo]

rmoretti, I would doubt that anyone has tried this Taylor saddle, per-se, but per-string compensation in each of the 12-string courses has been something that some luthiers will do for you.

None of my Guilds has been treated to such a saddle, but my luthier made me one for my 1984 Taylor 655 jumbo 12 many years ago. Carved it from bone. That guitar got a lot of love years ago when I bought it, and that saddle (among many other things) is great!

I believe some of the folks here have had custom saddles like that made for their Guild 12 string.

 

[wileypickett]

I like the idea of a double compensated saddle you can just drop in.

The problem you may have trying to install the Taylor saddle on a Guild would be matching the thickness of their saddle with Guild's saddle slots. Guild made their saddle slots in half a dozen thicknesses (maybe more?) over the years, depending on when the guitar was built and what model it was, with some 12-strings having a sliver-thin saddle and others, like the 24-fret F45-12, having a massive 1/4" thick saddle.

Also, early Guild 12-strings had through-saddles, which might not support the Taylor.

With compensated saddles you can't thin the saddle to accomdate a narrower saddle slot without sanding away part of the compensated areas, which are on both sides of the saddle,

Possibly the best way to get around all the deviations would be to have your luthier fill the old saddle slot with matching rosewood or ebony and then route out a new saddle slot the exact thickness of the Taylor saddle. That might be cheaper than having your luthier carve a compensated saddle out of bone.

 

[12 string]

I've got one of these on each one of my Guilds and Taylors:

 

[Rayk]

I've got one of these on each one of my Guilds and Taylors:

Interesting I’ve not seen these that I recall but it’s not surprising to me . One thing would be saddle thickness/width was the bridge slot widened?

 

[chazmo]

I've got one of these on each one of my Guilds and Taylors:

cool, 'strang! Did you make them yourself, or is that the "Taylor" saddle that was mentioned originally?

 

[Cougar]

My old, long-gone jumbo Takamine GJ72CE-12 (which inspired me to get a jumbo Guild!) had two separate saddles.

 

[chazmo]

That's a pretty guitar, Cougs, but I've always wondered why 6-strings have that too... I think it's maybe for strength and ease of production, though I'm not sure.

That wouldn't really count as per-string compensated. Or, at least, not from what I can see in the picture. Look at 'strang's picture above for a very clear example of a 12-string compensated saddle.

 

[12 string]

Rayk, I did not have the saddle slot widened though I've heard of people doing that.

Chazmo, I just don't understand how the Taylor saddle helps the problem of the low bass strings sharping up the neck. Different luthiers and techs have made these for me. Fixit made one of them.


' Strang.

 

[wileypickett]

And let's not even get into double-stuffed Oreos!

 

[GGJaguar]

And let's not even get into double-stuffed Oreos!

Yes, let's. The chocolate creme ones.

 

[chazmo]

So many years since I've had an Oreo (or any other dessert)... But, I used to think the double-stuffed ones were not as good as regular. Then again, I was never the type to split Oreos open and eat the creme separately from the cookie.

I'm not sure if I'm the heathen here or the double-stuff creme-lovers are!

 

[wileypickett]

Man, it's so easy to start a veer with this group!

It might be heresy, but I prefer Hydrox to Oreos.

 

[chazmo]

I actually like both, Glenn, but if I had to be stuck with one on a desert island... OREO!

 

[Rayk]

Rayk, I did not have the saddle slot widened though I've heard of people doing that.

Chazmo, I just don't understand how the Taylor saddle helps the problem of the low bass strings sharping up the neck. Different luthiers and techs have made these for me. Fixit made one of them.


' Strang.

What blows my mind is the thickness of the original saddle as is , is it shaped for compensation which varies between years and brands as how to how it compensated or not , this looks like a plop and drop saddle how the heck do they know that this what looks like it is pre cut saddle ( unless I missed something) will set the intonation correctly ?

There’s another issue which could effect some is that on the basis that this sets perfection intonation in standard how will it function on multiple tunings ?

Of course this is a given as to failure as for open tunings go but my point is for this to work the bridge/saddle set itself must be spot on to begin with .

If the saddle set is off , adjustment is needed ie recut and reset the saddle and or changed to a thicker saddle which has more intonation adjustment area . If intonation is off the saddle could be adjusted but it’s limited to the thickness of the saddle itself and we’re back to recutting the saddle slot etc .

Now I’m confusing myself as to what I’m looking at !? Lol is it worth it or is it a gimmick ?

I’m a nut case that asks to many questions ! Lmao I’m going to bed ! Lol

 

[12 string]

What blows my mind is the thickness of the original saddle as is , is it shaped for compensation which varies between years and brands as how to how it compensated or not , this looks like a plop and drop saddle how the heck do they know that this what looks like it is pre cut saddle ( unless I missed something) will set the intonation correctly ?

There’s another issue which could effect some is that on the basis that this sets perfection intonation in standard how will it function on multiple tunings ?

Of course this is a given as to failure as for open tunings go but my point is for this to work the bridge/saddle set itself must be spot on to begin with .

If the saddle set is off , adjustment is needed ie recut and reset the saddle and or changed to a thicker saddle which has more intonation adjustment area . If intonation is off the saddle could be adjusted but it’s limited to the thickness of the saddle itself and we’re back to recutting the saddle slot etc .

Now I’m confusing myself as to what I’m looking at !? Lol is it worth it or is it a gimmick ?

I’m a nut case that asks to many questions ! Lmao I’m going to bed ! Lol

I've been Rayk'd!

This is not the original saddle (I still have that) and I believe this one started as a drop-in bone blank with a pre-compensated B. I think you were absolutely right about that. Getting all the other strings intonated is a pretty labor intensive job for a skilled craftsman with the actual guitar in hand. Each guitar is different so these thing are made one at a time. Heavier gauge strings require more setback which could require a wider slot and saddle.

About your second question, the overall intonation is much better. It's not "perfect", no such thing, really. The main improvement is that you can go way up the neck on the bass strings and stay in tune when they would otherwise go sharp. The strings play more in tune with each other and will do so in any tuning.

You ask is it worth it. I guess that depends. For a player who does rhythm, mostly chording with limited single string work and mostly in first position, maybe not. But for a fingerstylist or lead player, with single strings more exposed it opens doors. 12 stringerites usually don't go too far up the fretboard on the bass side because of the intonation problems. With the bass strings individually compensated you can do that. With the compensated B added the guitar really sounds better and it's easier to tune.

It's worth it.

' Strang

 

[Rayk]

I've been Rayk'd!

This is not the original saddle (I still have that) and I believe this one started as a drop-in bone blank with a pre-compensated B. I think you were absolutely right about that. Getting all the other strings intonated is a pretty labor intensive job for a skilled craftsman with the actual guitar in hand. Each guitar is different so these thing are made one at a time. Heavier gauge strings require more setback which could require a wider slot and saddle.

About your second question, the overall intonation is much better. It's not "perfect", no such thing, really. The main improvement is that you can go way up the neck on the bass strings and stay in tune when they would otherwise go sharp. The strings play more in tune with each other and will do so in any tuning.

You ask is it worth it. I guess that depends. For a player who does rhythm, mostly chording with limited single string work and mostly in first position, maybe not. But for a fingerstylist or lead player, with single strings more exposed it opens doors. 12 stringerites usually don't go too far up the fretboard on the bass side because of the intonation problems. With the bass strings individually compensated you can do that. With the compensated B added the guitar really sounds better and it's easier to tune.

It's worth it.

' Strang

Lol everyone needs a Rayk it’s like a warm embracing hug ! Lol

I understand what you’re saying. I still wonder but my mind is more in 6 string mode than 12 now I think about it . I want to say I can’t remember intonation issues on my 12 string songs but I’m pretty sure they must of been there . Lol

 

[maxr]

I just got my JH30-12 back from having a custom 12 compensated saddle fitted (DADGAD in concert, D'Addario 85/15 bronze 10-50s). This ain't easy as the original slot on this particular guitar is routed for about a 2.4mm wide saddle, and the 6th pair (DADGAD tuning in concert) appears to require more compensation (in opposite directions) than is available on a saddle that wide, even allowing for the slot being cut slanted to start with. The luthier reckons that's due to the huge difference in 6th pair string sizes (50/26). Here's the saddle, best as I can get it with a phone pic. You'll see the bridge top is actually wider than the saddle slot base area on the 6th pair, rather than rout out the saddle slot to be wider. He reckons that still isn't enough on the 6th pair, and suggests that tuning the 6th pair slightly different on open strings (one very slightly up, one down), will probably deceive the ear into considering the open octave gap strings in tune, and the more critical higher pitched frets will actually be in tune.

I think the suggestion is that achieving accurate compensation on the 6th pair would require a considerably wider saddle, at least for these strings (which I bought 2 sets of due to fat finger, meant to get 2 x 10-47 PB's). Once they wear out, I'll try a regular D'Addario 10-47 PB Light set, and see if that's better on the 6th. By the way, he also said he was very happy to have undertaken the learning experience of doing this, but he'd rather not ever do this again, and the way to go would be buying a precut compensated saddle like the Taylor one and do whatever was required to fit it. He reckons that's likely to be near enough for most ears and a whole lot easier - and this guy's very good and very experienced. It sounds wonderful everywhere else, at least compared to the uncompensated straight bone saddle it came with. He did also comment that this was possibly the most resonant guitar he'd ever worked on - when he played others he could hear it humming along Max