drowlins
Member
I think Guilds are hard to find because people PLAY them. I don't see too many here in Kansas, but when I do, it's a well played oldie.
George Gruhn artilcle on the Pros & Cons of Collectors
- Thread starter Mr. P ~
- Start date
Bing k
Senior Member
drowlins said:
That's how I'd like to be classified: as a "well played oldie" :wink:
The Guilds of Grot
Enlightened Member
Well I guess you can blame it all on me 'cause I'm hoarding 'em! I suppose that would make me a guitar hoar huh? 
When I first started collecting Guilds (late 80's) they were cheap because at that time they were completely overlooked as collectable guitars. I would go to some of the earliest guitar shows and see maybe five at the most. But over time as all the Fender's, Gibson's, and Gretch's were bought up and therefore priced out of range, all of sudden Guilds became collectable.
They've always been the "red-headed stepchild" of American guitars. One reason (as I understand it) is that after the Johnny Smith ordeal, Guild would never pay anybody to endorse their guitars. They may have given them away for free, but didn't pay them in addition to that. Though, as you all know there are plenty of musicians playing Guilds regularly. Why, 'cause they love them.
As far as storing vs playing, well I have to admit that I don't play all my guitars and basses. I play bass in a classic rock band and for the most part I play my '85 Pilot. Mostly because it's light (poplar) and the Kahler tremelo freaks people out. Sometimes I'll play the black '84 Pilot when the two guitarist are playing their black guitars so we all match. I've also taken out the 902 Pilot and the Pro-4 a few times just for kicks and giggles. When you're playing music from the 50's, 60's & 70's the pointy basses would just look stupid. :shock: Now, if I get a gig in a retro Hair Band, I'd be ready to go!
On the guitar side, at one time I was playing weekly at an open mic. So every week I would bring a different guitar. Needless to say, after a couple of weeks everybody would gather around me when I came in to see what I had brought this week to play.
Open mic's are a great place to play vintage instruments. It's a safe environment and there's minimal wear and tear when you're only playing six songs or so.
dredut's got it right; Made To Be Played! (Just not too much)
The Guilds of Grot
When I first started collecting Guilds (late 80's) they were cheap because at that time they were completely overlooked as collectable guitars. I would go to some of the earliest guitar shows and see maybe five at the most. But over time as all the Fender's, Gibson's, and Gretch's were bought up and therefore priced out of range, all of sudden Guilds became collectable.
They've always been the "red-headed stepchild" of American guitars. One reason (as I understand it) is that after the Johnny Smith ordeal, Guild would never pay anybody to endorse their guitars. They may have given them away for free, but didn't pay them in addition to that. Though, as you all know there are plenty of musicians playing Guilds regularly. Why, 'cause they love them.
As far as storing vs playing, well I have to admit that I don't play all my guitars and basses. I play bass in a classic rock band and for the most part I play my '85 Pilot. Mostly because it's light (poplar) and the Kahler tremelo freaks people out. Sometimes I'll play the black '84 Pilot when the two guitarist are playing their black guitars so we all match. I've also taken out the 902 Pilot and the Pro-4 a few times just for kicks and giggles. When you're playing music from the 50's, 60's & 70's the pointy basses would just look stupid. :shock: Now, if I get a gig in a retro Hair Band, I'd be ready to go!
On the guitar side, at one time I was playing weekly at an open mic. So every week I would bring a different guitar. Needless to say, after a couple of weeks everybody would gather around me when I came in to see what I had brought this week to play.
Open mic's are a great place to play vintage instruments. It's a safe environment and there's minimal wear and tear when you're only playing six songs or so.
dredut's got it right; Made To Be Played! (Just not too much)
The Guilds of Grot
I'm not apologizing for hoarding my modest collection, Not a one of them goes a week without being picked up, tuned & played a while.
Ceptin the Taylor.
Hey John,
You interested in trading your GF 60 for My T 5? Would it help if I threw in the DC5 & an amp? You can have your choice of amps. I'll be watching my messages for your PM.
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictu ... 2100270791
[img:450:338]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid217/p5fbb84c34c96ecf4c4a476cc238e12d7/ec57b46a.jpg[/img][img:450:338]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid217/p40904d841c3d2aec708e8ace78bf761c/ec57b453.jpg[/img]
Ceptin the Taylor.
Hey John,
You interested in trading your GF 60 for My T 5? Would it help if I threw in the DC5 & an amp? You can have your choice of amps. I'll be watching my messages for your PM.
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictu ... 2100270791
[img:450:338]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid217/p5fbb84c34c96ecf4c4a476cc238e12d7/ec57b46a.jpg[/img][img:450:338]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid217/p40904d841c3d2aec708e8ace78bf761c/ec57b453.jpg[/img]
Bing k said:
You're damn straight we play 'em. Every one has a different sound and every one suits a different mood and I wouldn't be without any of them. If they weren't being played I wouldn't have them, and believe it or not even my wife understands that (some things never cease to amaze...). Its kind of like a sax player who has an alto, tenor, baritone and soprano -- and a couple of others in different finishes. Would you call him a collector, hoarder or player?
One word left out is trader, its kind of fun to own a guitar for a while then share it with someone else who appreciates it so you can try something else.
Very intersting topic, I enjoyed reading your thoughts Guys.
I was approched some years ago after a gig by a young man who wanted to buy my Gibson J45. I told him it was not for sale and he then listed a wonderful collection of guitars that he owned, and you know what, he didn't play a note.
I saw a Gibson dated 1938 at an auction in London, someone had shot the top with what looked like pellets from an airgun and then broken off the head stock which had been badly gluded back, unplayable but it went for £6500 (11200 USD) crazy. I certainly wouldn't buy a guitar I couldn't play.
The guitar is the worlds most popular instrument and they say that one in every three households has one but if you take the fail rate of beginers learning to play which I would guess is nine out of ten there are more guitars out there unplayed than played.
I was approched some years ago after a gig by a young man who wanted to buy my Gibson J45. I told him it was not for sale and he then listed a wonderful collection of guitars that he owned, and you know what, he didn't play a note.
I saw a Gibson dated 1938 at an auction in London, someone had shot the top with what looked like pellets from an airgun and then broken off the head stock which had been badly gluded back, unplayable but it went for £6500 (11200 USD) crazy. I certainly wouldn't buy a guitar I couldn't play.
The guitar is the worlds most popular instrument and they say that one in every three households has one but if you take the fail rate of beginers learning to play which I would guess is nine out of ten there are more guitars out there unplayed than played.
guildzilla
Senior Member
This thread came to a somewhat neat conclusion about five months ago, but I was reading it today and wondered if some of the newer members might want to add to the discussion.
One of the most interesting LTG discussions, I think.
One of the most interesting LTG discussions, I think.
Steelpickin'
Senior Member
I have many guitars as well as other inst. many, many more than listed in my signature...BUT,...I own my instruments. They will never own me.
I never worry about takeing any of them out to play most gigs ( with the exception of the occasional duck and dive) yes I am careful but thats only because I like to take care of them not because of any resale value they have....Its supposed to be fun. Its music
All of us are born with the music inside us
Some play it, some ignore it
and some never hear it...
Dont leave this Earth with the music still inside you.
I never worry about takeing any of them out to play most gigs ( with the exception of the occasional duck and dive) yes I am careful but thats only because I like to take care of them not because of any resale value they have....Its supposed to be fun. Its music
All of us are born with the music inside us
Some play it, some ignore it
and some never hear it...
Dont leave this Earth with the music still inside you.
matsickma
Senior Member
In the last 7 years I had the fortune to own well over a hundred guitars with most being Guild. (I did use a home equity loan to fund my mid-life amusement !) It has been great fun exploring many or most of the models that Guild produced. I had new and like new guitars and many that were beat and customized. They have all been fun. Some of the most expensive have not been my favorites while others that are on the lower end have turned out to be my players. However in all of my great joy in this guitar exploring excursion there has been one element I sorely missed. That is... at one time I only owned a single Guild. It was all I played and I played it all the time, I modified it, I refinished it and my finger crud was imbedded all over the frets, etc. I had a very personal feeling about that guitar and fortunatly I still own it. My point is having a assemblage of guitars is lots of fun and offers a lot of different voices but you loose the personal connection when you have all those guitars. It is the one or two players that you grow with that makes you feel special about the instrument. I loved the feeling of have my own version of a beat up SRV Strat or Clapton Blacky Strat.
In the long haul I expect to only own a handful of favorites. I am curious just which ones they will be. I suspect they will be the ones worth less $ because of how I personalized them with modifications.
M
In the long haul I expect to only own a handful of favorites. I am curious just which ones they will be. I suspect they will be the ones worth less $ because of how I personalized them with modifications.
M
djid
Junior Member
I'm one of the new guy's.
This is a "Popular Place to be" if you love Guild's.
Maybe It's a mid-life/always wanted to thing for me but I seem to be a collector & I didn't even know it till now.
My guitar's get played regularly & none of them are really that special.
I guess I'm not that kind of collector.
As the years go by it seems that Guild's are the ones that get my attention. but I do not buy a guitar till I play it. Not yet at least!
This is a "Popular Place to be" if you love Guild's.
Maybe It's a mid-life/always wanted to thing for me but I seem to be a collector & I didn't even know it till now.
My guitar's get played regularly & none of them are really that special.
I guess I'm not that kind of collector.
As the years go by it seems that Guild's are the ones that get my attention. but I do not buy a guitar till I play it. Not yet at least!
West R Lee
Venerated Member
Dj
Probably the best policy, not to buy one until you play it. The problem there is that if you're like me and live in a small town, it's virtually impossible to find a Guild, especially a Westerly or Hoboken.
I'm sure in some way your guitars are special to you, heck they've been with you a while I assume. And if you've had them for many years, you've learned a lot on them.
Fret,
I'm still hoping to learn how to play mine after trying for about 40 years.
West
Probably the best policy, not to buy one until you play it. The problem there is that if you're like me and live in a small town, it's virtually impossible to find a Guild, especially a Westerly or Hoboken.
I'm sure in some way your guitars are special to you, heck they've been with you a while I assume. And if you've had them for many years, you've learned a lot on them.
Fret,
I'm still hoping to learn how to play mine after trying for about 40 years.
West
Kap'n
Member
I dunno. I'm a practical kind of guy. I like instruments I can play.
I've owned a few rare (but not necessarily collectible) guitars in my life, both Guilds. And they were albatrosses. I never wanted to drag them out and play them in the bars, because I didn't want to mess them up. I got rid of them. And I don't miss 'em a bit.
So I own and play replaceable instruments. If something happens to my strat or les paul, it would suck, but I could easily replace them. And they sound and play nice.
Let the collectors do what they want. Unlike violins, guitars are better than ever, if you know what you want.
I've owned a few rare (but not necessarily collectible) guitars in my life, both Guilds. And they were albatrosses. I never wanted to drag them out and play them in the bars, because I didn't want to mess them up. I got rid of them. And I don't miss 'em a bit.
So I own and play replaceable instruments. If something happens to my strat or les paul, it would suck, but I could easily replace them. And they sound and play nice.
Let the collectors do what they want. Unlike violins, guitars are better than ever, if you know what you want.
West R Lee
Venerated Member
I certainly don't apologize for owning the guitars I've been lucky enough to find. I don't play bars, but have played all of them while playing in public.
To me, taking good care of them is just common sense. We cherish them for what they are, great sounding, fairly rare and valuable instruments. There's nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, I definately understand a guy that plays various venues or gatherings and owns beaters that sound good also. There's nothing wrong with that either. Different strokes, different folks.
West
To me, taking good care of them is just common sense. We cherish them for what they are, great sounding, fairly rare and valuable instruments. There's nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, I definately understand a guy that plays various venues or gatherings and owns beaters that sound good also. There's nothing wrong with that either. Different strokes, different folks.
West
guildzilla
Senior Member
After a serious 7-month GAS attack, I'm starting to feel as Matsickma expressed.
I discovered e-Bay and its vintage guitar listings last summer, following about 9 years where all of my free time had been spent coaching youth sports and my guitar interest had temporarily diminished.
It didn't take me long to figure out that if I sold my Gibson Les Paul, ES-125T, and EB-O bass, I could easily replace them with a pretty fabulous (IMO) Guild collection for the same amount of money.
I had owned those three instruments from 13-25 years, but they were not exactly what I wanted, even though I had some emotional attachment.
I had my F-44 and decided to build from there. Sold the Gibsons and bought all the stuff listed in my signature, except the banjo and F-44 with the proceeds.
To me, the Guilds were an overwhelming value compared to similar Gibsons. Bottom line, I basically swapped the ES-125T for the Starfire III (what a more versatile guitar!) and swapped the LP Custom for an awesome Bluesbird, plus $1,000. And wound up with six nice Guilds, instead of three nice Gibsons.
It's been a blast doing this. Really about as much excitement, risk and adventure as I can stand. And fun sharing it on LTG.
I also bought a bunch of other Guild guitars, and I definitely can't afford to keep all of them. So I'm ready to scale back and resell some stuff and focus on enjoying what I keep. For awhile, I was considering trying to make money by regularly buying/selling guitars, but have realized that would convert my hobby into a job. Don't want that.
No doubt that GAS motivates you to play more and get better, too. That's the best thing about it.
I discovered e-Bay and its vintage guitar listings last summer, following about 9 years where all of my free time had been spent coaching youth sports and my guitar interest had temporarily diminished.
It didn't take me long to figure out that if I sold my Gibson Les Paul, ES-125T, and EB-O bass, I could easily replace them with a pretty fabulous (IMO) Guild collection for the same amount of money.
I had owned those three instruments from 13-25 years, but they were not exactly what I wanted, even though I had some emotional attachment.
I had my F-44 and decided to build from there. Sold the Gibsons and bought all the stuff listed in my signature, except the banjo and F-44 with the proceeds.
To me, the Guilds were an overwhelming value compared to similar Gibsons. Bottom line, I basically swapped the ES-125T for the Starfire III (what a more versatile guitar!) and swapped the LP Custom for an awesome Bluesbird, plus $1,000. And wound up with six nice Guilds, instead of three nice Gibsons.
It's been a blast doing this. Really about as much excitement, risk and adventure as I can stand. And fun sharing it on LTG.
I also bought a bunch of other Guild guitars, and I definitely can't afford to keep all of them. So I'm ready to scale back and resell some stuff and focus on enjoying what I keep. For awhile, I was considering trying to make money by regularly buying/selling guitars, but have realized that would convert my hobby into a job. Don't want that.
No doubt that GAS motivates you to play more and get better, too. That's the best thing about it.
West R Lee
Venerated Member
So true Zilla. Furthermore, Gibson, Martin, Taylor......none of them are in short supply to my knowledge. There's a certain mystique or attraction to Guild. The Westerlys and Hobokens for obvious reasons. But it seems that even the Tacomas aren't just laying around all over the place!
Love my Guilds!
You know, when it comes right down to it, you can spend $2000 on an extremely rare Guild that sounds and looks like a $3500 guitar and are extemely limited and rare, or you can spend $2000 on a Martin or Taylor that sound very middle of the road and are very abundant. Looks like a no-brainer to me.
West
Love my Guilds!
You know, when it comes right down to it, you can spend $2000 on an extremely rare Guild that sounds and looks like a $3500 guitar and are extemely limited and rare, or you can spend $2000 on a Martin or Taylor that sound very middle of the road and are very abundant. Looks like a no-brainer to me.
West
You know, not many Guilds may have come out of the Hoboken era in "collector's condition" because the owners were like "ok, it's not a Martin or a Gibson, I'm never gonna make money offa this thing, I might as well just play it" - so I bet the ratio of Guilds in the hands of players who spend the time over the ages to make em real warhorses is really high.
And that said, I'd rather pay less for a warhorse Guild that sounds played in versus a pristinish Guild anyhow, because Guilds STILL aren't as collectable as Martins and Gibson, so they're still worth "just playin." Probably the only guy who hoards Guilds is Slash, hehe. Oh, and Japanese Collectors. Carlo Greco says he fields requests from folks in Japan all the time requesting "the Paul Simon Guitar" and willing to pay premiums, hehe.
At the end of the day, Guild lovers have little hype and much heart - meant to be played under the radar, just the way I likes em!
And that said, I'd rather pay less for a warhorse Guild that sounds played in versus a pristinish Guild anyhow, because Guilds STILL aren't as collectable as Martins and Gibson, so they're still worth "just playin." Probably the only guy who hoards Guilds is Slash, hehe. Oh, and Japanese Collectors. Carlo Greco says he fields requests from folks in Japan all the time requesting "the Paul Simon Guitar" and willing to pay premiums, hehe.
At the end of the day, Guild lovers have little hype and much heart - meant to be played under the radar, just the way I likes em!
mario1956
Member
Very interesting article. And like others have said, Gruhn makes money off of collectible instruments. But since we musicians obviously can't appreciate a fine vintage instrument, doing all those awful modifications and stuff, those fine old instruments need to be locked away and not be abused. Yeah, right! :roll:
I say let them have all those instruments they want, and then they can open their little country club and sit around and stare at all their pretty little toys.
I hope and pray that Guilds will always be for musicians. At least until I get a bigger collection
I say let them have all those instruments they want, and then they can open their little country club and sit around and stare at all their pretty little toys.
I hope and pray that Guilds will always be for musicians. At least until I get a bigger collection
In the 1970s, Japanese engineers and investors bought up most of the used Marantz and McIntosh tube stereo equipment. Outcome; items became more scarce and costs went up. In the 1980s, many Japanese golf club collectors and speculators bought up 1950s/1960s McGregor, Spalding, and Wilson persimmon golf clubs. Outcome; items became more scarce and costs went up.
These products epitomized American engineering and manufacturing know-how. The Japanese audio industry used the Marantz 8Bs to match up against their stuff; Marantz was their standard of excellence. Although nearly completely unhittable by the average player, classic persimmon golf clubs evoke the charm of the game and amazement that Jones, Hagan, Nelson, Hogan, and Palmer could break par with them.
If 'supply' drives cost, I wonder which has more impact on supply and the market value of vintage guitars; collectors paying a premium and pulling them out of circulation or some of the trainwrecks we see from time to time on eBay? The snapped necks, drunken refins, shipping blunders (Zom Zom, others) carved girlfriend's names in the headstocks, spruce tops signed in magic marker by obscure musicians, how about that big red Guild a few months ago with the record-setting case of buckle-rash?
I guess my question is what is the relationship between the number of guitars removed from circulation by collectors and those lost through neglect, indifference, or bungling? Wouldn't it be fair to say that the collectors, like our Guilds of Grot, are often looking for 'specimen'-grade instruments? If so, then 'collectors' (in the postive sense) are only removing the cream of what's available as opposed to 'hoarding' (the negative sense) out of gluttony or expectation of increased value.
All this applies to vintage amps too; does anyone really think the 1959 Fender Bassman that Jeff posted recently is anything close to a 'player'? The pic even included shots of the owner's 'cache' of highly regarded Fender and Marshall amps; electronic versions of Gruhns, Loars, 1956 Les Pauls, whatever.
Before we stick the collectors and snotballs with the apparently 'too high' value of vintage gear, we have to consider our friends on the one hand like Guilds of Grot who is clearly just plain in love with Guilds and Guildiana and who is in a position to act on his interests and the consequences of those who are terminally stupid mixed with a little help from UPS Ground on the other:
"Yes, I'll drag that package on the ground behind my truck..."
Yes; I wish vintage Guilds didn't cost what they do but I feel the same way about things far more useful and necessary; gas, insurance, college tuition...on and on.
These products epitomized American engineering and manufacturing know-how. The Japanese audio industry used the Marantz 8Bs to match up against their stuff; Marantz was their standard of excellence. Although nearly completely unhittable by the average player, classic persimmon golf clubs evoke the charm of the game and amazement that Jones, Hagan, Nelson, Hogan, and Palmer could break par with them.
If 'supply' drives cost, I wonder which has more impact on supply and the market value of vintage guitars; collectors paying a premium and pulling them out of circulation or some of the trainwrecks we see from time to time on eBay? The snapped necks, drunken refins, shipping blunders (Zom Zom, others) carved girlfriend's names in the headstocks, spruce tops signed in magic marker by obscure musicians, how about that big red Guild a few months ago with the record-setting case of buckle-rash?
I guess my question is what is the relationship between the number of guitars removed from circulation by collectors and those lost through neglect, indifference, or bungling? Wouldn't it be fair to say that the collectors, like our Guilds of Grot, are often looking for 'specimen'-grade instruments? If so, then 'collectors' (in the postive sense) are only removing the cream of what's available as opposed to 'hoarding' (the negative sense) out of gluttony or expectation of increased value.
All this applies to vintage amps too; does anyone really think the 1959 Fender Bassman that Jeff posted recently is anything close to a 'player'? The pic even included shots of the owner's 'cache' of highly regarded Fender and Marshall amps; electronic versions of Gruhns, Loars, 1956 Les Pauls, whatever.
Before we stick the collectors and snotballs with the apparently 'too high' value of vintage gear, we have to consider our friends on the one hand like Guilds of Grot who is clearly just plain in love with Guilds and Guildiana and who is in a position to act on his interests and the consequences of those who are terminally stupid mixed with a little help from UPS Ground on the other:
"Yes, I'll drag that package on the ground behind my truck..."
Yes; I wish vintage Guilds didn't cost what they do but I feel the same way about things far more useful and necessary; gas, insurance, college tuition...on and on.