Guild Custom 12s.

[Steve Power]

Hi. New to the group. Question please. Can anyone supply information on Guild custom edition 12 strings, particularly from early 70s Westerly factory. Not special order but "custom" in the sense of higher grade cosmetics and/or woods. Thanks kindly.

 

[adorshki]

Hi. New to the group. Question please. Can anyone supply information on Guild custom edition 12 strings, particularly from early 70s Westerly factory. Not special order but "custom" in the sense of higher grade cosmetics and/or woods. Thanks kindly.

HI Steve, welcome!

In the early '70's Westerly operated much like a custom shop anyway, in that they would build one-offs and short runs of special builds without necessarily having made them to an order.

That would be as opposed to "special order" models like the D55 which was introduced as special order only in '68, finally becoming a regular production model in '74.

The first Guild 12's were the F212 (16" lower bout) and F312 ca late '64-'65. Those early models frequently featured extra-wide (nearly 2") nut widths and flat radius boards. Ralf towner (edit: corrected from Pat Metheny, had a senior moment) was a fan of that variant.

Next up in '68 was F412 based on the F50 (arched maple backs 17" lower bout). The F412 begat the very earliest F512's as "F412 Specials", which, as far as I can tell, were built "just to try it". IIRC early F412's/512's were special order only, and that being the case, easily tailored to a customer's special requests (within taste and reason.)

("Special" usually designated an instrument that was built with a significant spec variant, in this case, the F412 got a rosewood body.)
In the case of the D55, Tommy Smothers ordered D50's with F50 necks (bling) and these were originally labeled "D50 Special" before they finally made it a "standard model".

So with the F512's things got really interesting. The detail I remember most clearly is the ones that got special fretboard inlays, nice review here in Vintage Guitar:
https://www.vintageguitar.com/29226/guild-f-512/

The other exotic variant I recall were the arched rosewood back F512's. These were based on the the same treatment given to some late '60's F50's of which John Denver and Bob Weir are known owners.

The curious detail about these backs was that although they're truly laminated "one-piece" arched backs, they look like like traditional book-matched 2-sided (2 piece solid) backs. IIRC part of the problem was simply obtaining rosewood veneer of sufficient size to make a one piece (laminated) arched back, so Guild simply used 2 pieces of rosewood laminated to a center sheet(s) on both sides, and even put a marquetry stripe down the center which really throws some people off.

So they take that glue-laminated sheet and put it in a steam press with the appropriate size archback dies installed and press the back into shape. It's really a quite elegant and durable construction. But it's possible an arched back might create sonic overkill with rosewood, that might explain why the configuration is so rare in general.

So I doubt there were more than 6 of 'em ever built, that was Guild's standard "batch size". I wouldn't even know about the archback 512's except a guy with a matching pair of the F50/F512 archbacks joined and posted few years back.

Others might have more interesting details to share.

So are you in the hunt?

 

[Steve Power]

Thanks kindly for all the info. I was on the hunt for a Guild 12. Wanted one for quite awhile. I inherited a Rickenbacker Tom Petty 660/12. Fantastic guitar but not something I was likely to use much. I thought, "Well I could sell it and get a Guild 12," and started looking. It was more a matter of "want" than "need". Long story short, I came across a very late '72 F512 with the German inlays as in the photo on that article, Indian rosewood back and sides, sunburst finish. I'm told the Indian rosewood is of a different quality that normally used. Perhaps old forest growth as opposed to coffee estate?" Negotiated a good deal on it and I'm waiting for delivery.

I have a small collection of six acoustics, which are all unique instruments. I have a 1973 BC Rich B-38 I bought new. This was when Bernardo Rico was a small builder in LA making flattops and Spanish guitars. It's his take on a prewar Martin. Seriously great guitar which I still have. The uniqueness of this particular F512 was what kind of hooked me to go for this example. from what I could tell from a video demo it sounded wonderful. I considered one of the Oxnard builds but I lean to vintage, cause so am I.

 

[Westerly Wood]

The ultimate zenith Guild 12 string would have been the F612. I just don't know how any of those are still out there to be had at a premium.

 

[Cougar]

I considered one of the Oxnard builds but I lean to vintage, cause so am I.

Haha! Welcome to the boards! Yeah, I'm pretty vintage too, so I know the problems that can accrue and prefer the younger "girls."

 

[Steve Power]

The ultimate zenith Guild 12 string would have been the F612. I just don't know how any of those are still out there to be had at a premium.

I've seen exactly one for sale a few years ago. If memory serves, it belonged to John Denver. I know Pete Townsend has one and toured with it. Very rare indeed and even more so that are offered for sale.

 

[fronobulax]

I've seen exactly one for sale a few years ago. If memory serves, it belonged to John Denver. I know Pete Townsend has one and toured with it. Very rare indeed and even more so that are offered for sale.

If the specific interest is F-612's you can do a lot of searching here. There are a couple of members who own or owned one, a story about a dumpster find and restoration, a custom build to similar specs and more.

If you want one you could be patient since I think they show up about once every five years. I suspect if you posted an offer of $10,000 for one you might pry it loose or at least start a conversation.

https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index.php?threads/f-612.203397/

Does anyone know what happened to John Denver’s Guilds?

Can't get into the JD guitar site: http://www.jdgrs.com/guitars.php Has this been taken down? The post here from a member of the John Denver Guitar Research Site has a link to the site that does not work for me, so they may be out of business. I guess nothing has changed in the past day or...

letstalkguild.com

 

[Steve Power]

Not looking for an F612 but I am but a man and there is a danger I would succumb if one was to sashay on up to me.

 

[F-412Spec]

So with the F512's things got really interesting. The detail I remember most clearly is the ones that got special fretboard inlays, nice review here in Vintage Guitar:
https://www.vintageguitar.com/29226/guild-f-512/

The other exotic variant I recall were the arched rosewood back F512's.

Both of these features were also on the prototypes (F-412Spec.).

 

[chazmo]

Dave Van Ronk is the one guitarist who I recall being mentioned as owning one of the few arched-rosewood-backed jumbo Guilds of the late '60s. John Denver was an owner of some customized F-512s and F-50Rs, and F-612s. Not sure about Bob Weir...

 

[fronobulax]

Dave Van Ronk is the one guitarist who I recall being mentioned as owning one of the few arched-rosewood-backed jumbo Guilds of the late '60s. John Denver was an owner of some customized F-512s and F-50Rs, and F-612s. Not sure about Bob Weir...

Weir had at least a F-50R. Searching will remind you, if you need to be reminded

 

[adorshki]

Dave Van Ronk is the one guitarist who I recall being mentioned as owning one of the few arched-rosewood-backed jumbo Guilds of the late '60s. John Denver was an owner of some customized F-512s and F-50Rs, and F-612s. Not sure about Bob Weir...

https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index.php?threads/bob-weir-and-his-guild-f50.185399/

 

[Aristera]

Dave Van Ronk is the one guitarist who I recall being mentioned as owning one of the few arched-rosewood-backed jumbo Guilds of the late '60s. John Denver was an owner of some customized F-512s and F-50Rs, and F-612s. Not sure about Bob Weir...

Here's a thread from 2015 about Bob Weir and the archback F50.

Bob Weir and his Guild F50

In the June issue of Acoustic Guitar p43 there is an interesting paragraph or two where Bob Weir references his playing a custom order archback F50 with an oversized peghead. He said he used it on the '69-'70 acoustic sets and that only three were made. One for him and two Dead roadies got the...

letstalkguild.com

 

[Steve Power]

Both of these features were also on the prototypes (F-412Spec.).

I expect delivery Thursday of the F512 custom that prompted my post. I'll be able to get eyes on to see what I actually have and post pictures for comment.

 

[adorshki]

Dave Van Ronk is the one guitarist who I recall being mentioned as owning one of the few arched-rosewood-backed jumbo Guilds of the late '60s. John Denver was an owner of some customized F-512s and F-50Rs, and F-612s. Not sure about Bob Weir...

Y'know, I don't think I ever knew Van Ronk had an 'R', always thought it was a plain ol' maple body (so to speak). Might explain why his tone is so "gutsy" compared to what I expect from maple. And he loved to play dead strings.

 

[GGJaguar]

I expect delivery Thursday of the F512 custom that prompted my post.

Looking forward to your New Guitar Day post!

 

[Steve Power]

HI Steve, welcome!

In the early '70's Westerly operated much like a custom shop anyway, in that they would build one-offs and short runs of special builds without necessarily having made them to an order.

That would be as opposed to "special order" models like the D55 which was introduced as special order only in '68, finally becoming a regular production model in '74.

The first Guild 12's were the F212 (16" lower bout) and F312 ca late '64-'65. Those early models frequently featured extra-wide (nearly 2") nut widths and flat radius boards. Ralf towner (edit: corrected from Pat Metheny, had a senior moment) was a fan of that variant.

Next up in '68 was F412 based on the F50 (arched maple backs 17" lower bout). The F412 begat the very earliest F512's as "F412 Specials", which, as far as I can tell, were built "just to try it". IIRC early F412's/512's were special order only, and that being the case, easily tailored to a customer's special requests (within taste and reason.)

("Special" usually designated an instrument that was built with a significant spec variant, in this case, the F412 got a rosewood body.)
In the case of the D55, Tommy Smothers ordered D50's with F50 necks (bling) and these were originally labeled "D50 Special" before they finally made it a "standard model".

So with the F512's things got really interesting. The detail I remember most clearly is the ones that got special fretboard inlays, nice review here in Vintage Guitar:
https://www.vintageguitar.com/29226/guild-f-512/

The other exotic variant I recall were the arched rosewood back F512's. These were based on the the same treatment given to some late '60's F50's of which John Denver and Bob Weir are known owners.

The curious detail about these backs was that although they're truly laminated "one-piece" arched backs, they look like like traditional book-matched 2-sided (2 piece solid) backs. IIRC part of the problem was simply obtaining rosewood veneer of sufficient size to make a one piece (laminated) arched back, so Guild simply used 2 pieces of rosewood laminated to a center sheet(s) on both sides, and even put a marquetry stripe down the center which really throws some people off.

So they take that glue-laminated sheet and put it in a steam press with the appropriate size archback dies installed and press the back into shape. It's really a quite elegant and durable construction. But it's possible an arched back might create sonic overkill with rosewood, that might explain why the configuration is so rare in general.

So I doubt there were more than 6 of 'em ever built, that was Guild's standard "batch size". I wouldn't even know about the archback 512's except a guy with a matching pair of the F50/F512 archbacks joined and posted few years back.

Others might have more interesting details to share.

So are you in the hunt?

The F-512 arrived today. It's pretty fab. Loud but well balanced. Neck in quite comfortable and overall pretty easy to play. You'll not it's very similar cosmetically to the one in the article you posted. Indian rosewood as opposed to Brazilian but a very nice piece of wood indeed. As you'll see, it's antique burst instead of natural and a really beautiful burst at that.

I understand these were special order back in the day but that Guild did not keep records of special orders. I've managed to find one like it online but am really curious how many may have been made. As they had to be ordered in advance I suspect very few.

Appreciate all the info so far. Thanks kindly.

 

[GGJaguar]

That sunburst is the bomb! Congrats!

 

[adorshki]

The F-512 arrived today. It's pretty fab. Loud but well balanced. Neck in quite comfortable and overall pretty easy to play. You'll not it's very similar cosmetically to the one in the article you posted. Indian rosewood as opposed to Brazilian but a very nice piece of wood indeed. As you'll see, it's antique burst instead of natural and a really beautiful burst at that.

Yes, Guild was even using EIR on some builds (Mark classicals IIRC?) even in the early '60's, which surprised me when I saw it, thought it would have been all Braz at the time.

We've had several discussions about what was considered desirable cosmetically at the time, and even though Braz is noted for its wild grain patterns, there was a lot of very straight-grained Braz at the time, too, so "straight-grain" EIR was seen as the desirable alternative.
At least that's how I remember @GuildFS4612CE (Jane) describing it. (Flagged so she can correct me if needed)

And interesting note, Guild had Braz suitable for fretboards and bridges well into the '70's and even early '80's for bridges IIRC?

I understand these were special order back in the day but that Guild did not keep records of special orders. I've managed to find one like it online but am really curious how many may have been made. As they had to be ordered in advance I suspect very few.

I think @hansmoust knows how many were made. He has production records from Westerly, and keeps track of "field reports" by s/n, but yes, they didn't always note if an instrument was a "Special", sometimes not even on the label.

Hans, if you didn't know, wrote The Guild Guitar Book covering 1953-'78 and is probably the world's foremost expert on Guild history.

Appreciate all the info so far. Thanks kindly.

You're welcome (on behalf of everybody, it's that kind of place)!
Hate to seem pushy but can we see the back?

 

[chazmo]

By the way, welcome aboard, @Steve Power . That's a nice entrance to LTG!

That's an attractive, early F-512. Do you know anything about when it was re-topped or who did the work? Take a mirror to the inside of that soundboard and you might find more information about it.

Really glad it's playable. Should be a honey to keep!