Guild Custom 12s.

[Steve Power]

Hello Steve,

Welcome! From what I can see in the photos and the info I have on file I believe that you have an F-512 from the year 1972 and it was part of a small batch of F-512s. Because of the way they worked at Guild it is very well possible that the instrument was completed during the year after that, but for all practical purposed it is considered a 1972 guitar.
The guitar seems to have gotten a complete overhaul and in the process some cosmetic features were changed.
The instrument was completely refinished and I believe the fingerboard binding was replaced as well. The inside rings of the rosette were partly removed and pearl pieces were used to fill the gap. Originally the top of the guitar would have had a natural finish, but it looks like the person who did the work, or the person who owned it, opted for a sunburst finish. It looks like a professional job, but it doesn't look like it was done at Guild. The pickguard shape may have been something that the owner liked, but there may be another reason why it has that particular shape, which may also have something to do with why the guitar needed an overhaul in the first place. I simply do not know!
Other than that the guitar seems to be all original.
That's pretty much what I can tell you without actually holding the guitar in my hands.

Hope you will enjoy the guitar!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

Dankjewel for the info and taking the time to weigh in. I'm taking it to Austin Vintage Guitars for a set up. Perhaps they can tell me if there is repaired damage, I can't see any, or a reason for why the work was done. At this moment, I'm going with it's a customized 1972 Guild F-512. She looks fine, sounds, and plays like Guild 12s are known for no matter what she's called. I'm happy with that. Austin Vintage can tell me if the customization affects the value but since I paid less than what appears to be the going rate for a completely original example I'm good with that as well. Bottom line, I've got a very nice guitar and a handle on how to accurately describe it should I or my heirs every want to sell it.

Hello Steve,

Welcome! From what I can see in the photos and the info I have on file I believe that you have an F-512 from the year 1972 and it was part of a small batch of F-512s. Because of the way they worked at Guild it is very well possible that the instrument was completed during the year after that, but for all practical purposed it is considered a 1972 guitar.
The guitar seems to have gotten a complete overhaul and in the process some cosmetic features were changed.
The instrument was completely refinished and I believe the fingerboard binding was replaced as well. The inside rings of the rosette were partly removed and pearl pieces were used to fill the gap. Originally the top of the guitar would have had a natural finish, but it looks like the person who did the work, or the person who owned it, opted for a sunburst finish. It looks like a professional job, but it doesn't look like it was done at Guild. The pickguard shape may have been something that the owner liked, but there may be another reason why it has that particular shape, which may also have something to do with why the guitar needed an overhaul in the first place. I simply do not know!
Other than that the guitar seems to be all original.
That's pretty much what I can tell you without actually holding the guitar in my hands.

Hope you will enjoy the guitar!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[fronobulax]

Hans as spoken so my comments and opinion have no relevance but when has that stopped me?

The claim is that the original owner "ordered it back in '72." Especially in those days, "order" does not have to mean "custom" but merely that the dealer did not have one in stock so the buyer picked something out of the catalog and "ordered" it.

Finding a catalog 1972 would certainly shed some light but my usual sources don't have one.

 

[Steve Power]

Hans as spoken so my comments and opinion have no relevance but when has that stopped me?

The claim is that the original owner "ordered it back in '72." Especially in those days, "order" does not have to mean "custom" but merely that the dealer did not have one in stock so the buyer picked something out of the catalog and "ordered" it.

Finding a catalog 1972 would certainly shed some light but my usual sources don't have one.

As I believe I said, although the person I bought it from thought it was a "Custom", as in an upgraded version, based on what he had been told. Not sure if that idea came from the original owner or someone else. I think it can best be described as "customized", albeit not by Guild.

From what I've read, in I believe was an article in Vintage Guitar magazine, the F512 at that time were made when ordered i.e. they were not usually in stock with dealers and had to ordered from the factory. Since the fancier inlays by all accounts are original, I can only think that they were an option, which if true would lend some credence to the idea that it wasn't made, or at least completed, until ordered. A catalog might well reveal that possibility. Hans mentions this guitar came from a small batch constructed in '72 but possibly not completed until '73. I'd be very interested to know the number of F512s constructed in '72. I know in prior years it was very few.

 

[SFIV1967]

1971 catalog, the model in general was called a "Custom" at that time.
Apr 1, 1972 price list (*Asterisk indicates Special Order), same content in the Jan 1, 1973 price list.



The Nov 1, 1973 still showed the Asterisk for "Special Order" but the "Custom" name was gone:



Juen 1, 1974: The Asterisk is gone.



Ralf

 

[adorshki]

Thanks for the info on contacting Hans Moust. I used to live in Holland, seven years. Played with some people he may know. It's summer holiday time over there. The Dutch travel everywhere.

I had another look at the rosette. I'm off to bed in a minute but I'll post a closeup tomorrow. Pardon if I'm using the wrong terminology but the very fine inlays touching the abalone are again well done and they and the others appear like other Guilds I can find. See, that's what is baffling. It seems certain the top is original as is the rest of the guitar, save the color, rosette and pickguard. So if the top was altered post build, what is involved in making those changes? If the abalone is wider that standard, which I can readily see it is, then would you not also have to replace the inlays on either side of it and possibly the inner and outer rings as well to keep them in proportion? Also would you not see signs of over spray or something on the binding when respraying the top? It just seems like overall it would be a hell of a lot of time consuming expensive work. And it's not personalized like the Merle Travis guitar. Can't get my head around some guy walking into his local luthier and saying, "Hey, I just got this thing. Can you pimp it up for me? Cost is no object?" Still, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio....."

Our mod Fronobulax coined a humorous term once, describing the situation when a couple of guys appear to be at odds but are actually arguing the same point from different angles: "Violent Agreement". Re the rosette details, right, that's why I said later the more I looked, the more I was willing to believe it could be original.

That Merle Travis guitar is insane. Is that yours? Once I got over the initial shock, I quite like it. Got that old school country flash like a Marty Stuart Nudie suit.

Oh no, not mine, but it's been around, formerly owned by Pete Townshend and then Rick Nielsen (Cheap Trick). And yeah, I suspect they gave the customer more leeway there than they would the average joe. He was already an endorser.

 

[hansmoust]

Oh no, not mine, but it's been around, formerly owned by Pete Townshend and then Rick Nielsen (Cheap Trick).

The one that Rick Nielsen has is not the one that Pete Townshend once owned ....... although when Rick bought his one, it looked like Pete had been the previous owner!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[Steve Power]

1971 catalog, the model in general was called a "Custom" at that time.
Apr 1, 1972 price list (*Asterisk indicates Special Order), same content in the Jan 1, 1973 price list.



The Nov 1, 1973 still showed the Asterisk for "Special Order" but the "Custom" name was gone:



Juen 1, 1974: The Asterisk is gone.



Ralf

Ah, so it appears my guitar is a customized Custom. So there was such a thing as a Custom version. The inflation calculator says the msrp would be equal to around $6k today. Thanks for posting this. Every little bit of information is great, especially documented and, of course, expert witness testimony from Hans Moust. Hell, I'd test this thing's DNA if I could. See who the baby daddy/baby momma was. Thanks so much for taking the time to post this. Much appreciated.

 

[Steve Power]

The one that Rick Nielsen has is not the one that Pete Townshend once owned ....... although when Rick bought his one, it looked like Pete had been the previous owner!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

Something on the lines of "As played by the Tasmanian Devil"?

 

[adorshki]

Ah, so it appears my guitar is a customized Custom. So there was such a thing as a Custom version. The inflation calculator says the msrp would be equal to around $6k today. Thanks for posting this. Every little bit of information is great, especially documented and, of course, expert witness testimony from Hans Moust. Hell, I'd test this thing's DNA if I could. See who the baby daddy/baby momma was. Thanks so much for taking the time to post this. Much appreciated.

Ralf's another of our highly respected gurus. I remembered one reason I thought the pearl rosette could be factory was, besides your patient reiteration of workmanship, condition, and top marking, was that "bar" I mentioned on the Merle Haggard's headstock. I realized they obviously had the material and could have shaped it into smaller segments for the rosette.

Although we now know the "truth", it still would have fallen into that "never say never" category for 'em if had been factory, another factor in my willingness to be more open-minded about it.

Also suspect that the true "special order" models as previously defined weren't built one at a time but that bodies were built in the typical "first economy of scale break" of 6 pieces, ideally having at least a couple of orders for 'em, but those remaining bodies might not be completed until the next orders came in. Kept inventory $ risk low (production could be very closely tailored to demand) and allowed that flexibility if someone wanted a "custom detail" (It even occurred to me that yours could have been built as a "pickguard delete", and the original owner installed their own.)

This was pretty common practice with regular production electrics, btw, so one day it occurred to me "Why not the special flattops too?"

That might also explain why sometimes special orders could take months (no bodies built yet), or sometimes just a few weeks, when bodies were ready to complete. To be clear, this is "informed speculation" based on things Hans and others have said about the way Guild worked, and the fact that after all they were a business and had to deal with issues common to all businesses.

 

[Steve Power]

I've explained most of what Hans said and a couple of other conjectures to the seller. He pushed back, not in a nasty way, with details of who told him what. The original owners son, a friend who he bought the guitar from, said his dad told him it was all original and who apparently only had high end custom made guitars. The seller had also been in touch with some guy who worked for Guild for 20 years who told him some things how Guild worked, something about some guy who was the record keeper who got pissed off, quit and took the records with him. The seller also had taken the guitar to someone named George at Ventura guitars, a vintage guitar dealer, who gave it some sort of "36 point inspection" and declared it all original. He texted me some of the exchanges with these folks but they were mostly cut off and unreadable. He's going to email them to me.

I'm very much leaning towards the opinions of Hans Moust and folks like yourself who have taken a reasoned open minded approach to the questions. Makes the most sense and how do you argue with the man that literally wrote the book.

One possibility that occurred to me is that perhaps the original buyer ordered the Custom version from Guild but wanted the sunburst, different pick guard etc. Hans tells me there would be markings that would indicate "special" if the custom work had been done at Guild and there was something about Guild not allowing such work to be done out of house. I thought it maybe possible the man had ordered the "Custom" from Guild but when they could not or would not do the changes he either took it immediately on delivery to whoever did the work or perhaps had Guild send it direct to that person. If so, the guitar would have arrived as we see it and, with decades gone by, the original owner simply remembered it as "original" since nothing had been changed since he received it.

You may have read Hans state the neck binding was not original. I had a close look when I read that. It does appear to be very slightly lighter in color but even that is hard to tell. The top finish has some minor checking which would be consistent with it's age. Hans also described the changes as an "overhaul". Which again begs, "Why?" I can't get a good enough look at the inside of the top to see if there is any damage but there is certainly no evidence on the outside. Going to Austin Vintage tomorrow and see what they might be able to tell me. If the guitar appears undamaged in anyway then it's a customization of a Custom. Leaving the only question, "Who did the work?" Hans appears very confident it was not done by Guild but certainly professionally done.

Although I said I couldn't imagine someone buying the guitar new and then straightway taking it for cosmetic changes, after hearing the original owner was in to custom guitars, I assume built to his ordered spec, that's not such a crazy idea, especially if the guy had loads of money. LIkely the case since he was capable of buying the equivalent of a six grand guitar and had a collection of high end customs.

At this stage, it's great to know and fun to search but ultimately academic. Having the work done at the factory would be a selling point but considering the quality of the work and the apparent age I don't think it would make a whole lot of difference in value. Anyway you look at it she's a lovely guitar, very unique. Hans described it as having come from a small batch. Considering the cost and all I'd guess no more than 2 or 3 dozen F512s were made in 72/73 and even fewer of the Custom version. All my guitars, especially my acoustics, are unique in someway. This Guild fits right in. Just have to think of a name for her.

 

[SFIV1967]

...but it's been around, formerly owned by Pete Townshend and then Rick Nielsen (Cheap Trick).

The one that Rick Nielsen has is not the one that Pete Townshend once owned ....... although when Rick bought his one, it looked like Pete had been the previous owner!

@Al, here was the info:

Rick Nielsen’s Merle Travis

Deke Dickerson posted this today on FB, along with the new photos of Rick’s Merle. THAT WAS A FUN DAY: I spent the day with Rick Nielsen of Cheap Trick in his hometown of Rockford, Illinois! Many of you know I recently completed the biography of Merle Travis. Rick Nielsen is an avid guitar...

letstalkguild.com

Rick Nielsen’s Merle Travis

Deke Dickerson posted this today on FB, along with the new photos of Rick’s Merle. THAT WAS A FUN DAY: I spent the day with Rick Nielsen of Cheap Trick in his hometown of Rockford, Illinois! Many of you know I recently completed the biography of Merle Travis. Rick Nielsen is an avid guitar...

letstalkguild.com

And some about the one Pete owned until about 1989:

Pete and Merle for the cover

The latest issue of Guitar Player magazine has the great shot of Pete with his Merle Travis Guild on the cover in glorious hI-pixel color.

letstalkguild.com

Ralf

 

[Default]

Just to throw in a personal anecdote from back in 1980. When I bought my D-25 from Howard Herbert's, I asked Howard why all the smaller shops were Guild dealers. He explained to me that you only had to order 8 guitars a year to be a Guild dealer. I had to order my D-25, as he didn't have one in stock.
I was in a local store about three years back, and the owner told me that Gibson was making him order a skid full of Gibsons and twice the amount of Epiphones. Eventually, he dropped Gibson in favor of G&L, because their franchising agreement wasn't so painful. He could sell the Gibsons, but the Epiphones were difficult to move because he had to buy so many of them.

 

[Steve Power]

BREAKING NEWS!! Okay not that exciting but news none the less and the final word, barring further documented info, on the '72 Guild F512 Custom that has been the object of much discussion.

I just picked the guitar up from South Austin Music where I had a set up and a K&K installed. I asked that the guitar tech, Tony, who is very familiar with Guilds and been repairing and customizing guitars for over 30 years, to have a look for any possible damage in its life and if he could give an opinion on what may have been done by Guild or not. He examined the guitar carefully and when I asked his reply was, "I just don't know for sure." Pretty much what I thought as well, that there are things that are impossible to determine with 100% confidence. So here's what he did say.

Overall, whoever did the work in question did an awesome job. He was impressed to say the least. Of the details in question...

The amber finish: He's is certain that it is not a respray. There is no sign of over spray anywhere. The edges are perfect. There is what he called a few tiny "boogers" where the spray gun probably sputtered a tiny bit. You have to really go looking for them and even then are hard to spot. The actual colors, the fade, and the rest are top class. Again, he is convinced the finish is original to the guitar but cannot say if it was done at the factory or not. He agreed with me when I said, "If the whoever did it didn't work for Guild they should have run out and hired him."

The neck binding: It is a slightly thicker string than the body binding but the patina is a match. Why it may have been done that way, he can't say but there has not been any damage or repair to the neck in anyway. Again, likely original to the guitar.

The abalone rosette: Not typical of Guild but fine nonetheless. He did mention the ends of the pieces where they join were not as perfectly matched as one would typically see on a similar Martin or Gibson. squared off a bit as opposed to shaped to match perfectly. His only comment, "Maybe that's just the way Guild did them in that time. If you could find another Guild from that period with the same sort of inlay that was the same that could tell you the rosette was done by Guild.

The pick guard: He could find no evidence of a pick guard having been removed and replaced with a different style. I tend to agree with the theory that it could have been ordered "Pick guard delete" and then the different style pick guard installed. In a way making it also original to the guitar.

There was absolutely NO evidence of being re-topped or damaged.

The seller has had a conversation with someone who worked at the Guild factory for 20 years. That gentleman said Guild may not have been happy with whoever was doing their finishes and tried out someone else. Supposedly that was going on at Guild. I'll file that theory under, "Anything is possible."

Bottom Line: With as much evidence and educated opinions as I can muster, I'm happy with a description as "A customized F512 Custom."
I think there is are valid arguments that the work was done at Guild, certainly the amber finish, but that there is not sufficient evidence to confirm in a court of law, members of the jury, that it was in fact done at the factory. And to be fair, I don't believe there is concrete evidence that it was not. As my man at South Austin Music said, "I just don't know."

One final question. Production numbers for the F-512 in 1972? I noted somewhere that I think only 29 were made in 68-69. Safe to assume the Custom version was likely 10% of that at most. Considering they were $6,000 in today's money I can't imagine there would have been much more that 3-4 people with the money or desire to spend that kind of cash, especially for a 12 string. From what I have been told of the original owner, he was

After all the discussion back and forth, I own a very nice '72 F-512 Custom, which is a completely unique example of the breed. I do really appreciate the questions and comments that were made as they sent me on what has been quite a fascinating journey of discovery.

 

[fronobulax]

BREAKING NEWS!!

I am That Guy and am only asking so that I have better understanding of what you were told.

"original" can be ambiguous when applied to manufactured goods sold at retail. It can describe the condition when it left the factory or the condition when it was delivered by an authorized dealer to the first purchaser at retail. Do you have a sense of how the word was being used and whether it was used that way consistently?

As a personal example we have a Guild F30 Traditional that was made in New Hartford and purchased as new. We ordered it from the dealer and placed a deposit. It wasn't ordered as "custom" in the sense that the specs were special but it was "custom" because the dealer did not have one in stock and so "special ordered" it for us. When it arrived the dealer installed a strap button at our request before we made the final payment and took delivery. So it was no longer "original" in terms of the factory but it was original in terms of how it was delivered. It was also custom because the factory did not, at that time, offer a strap button.

So if I told people it was a "custom F30 Traditional in original condition" I could defend every word. But since I have to look at myself in the mirror when I shave I would probably say "F30 Traditional with an added strap button".

Again I am not trying to dispute your conclusions or offend you. I am just curious about whether I would come to the same conclusions from the evidence. Thanks.

 

[Steve Power]

Perfectly reasonable question and I understand the reasoning behind it. "How does one define 'original?' was a question I asked myself in working through this. I came to two alternatives, either it came as seen direct from the factory and so "original" in the normal sense or it was perhaps delivered to a 3rd party by the factory who was responsible for the non-factory features, then delivered it to the original purchaser, making it "original" to him as that is the way it was when he first laid eyes on the guitar. The description of being all original was what was said to the son of the man who first purchased the guitar. The son then repeated that description to the guy he sold to i.e. the guy I bought it from and who also described it as all original. Without any documentation, either answer will forever be conjecture.

BTW, it is my understanding that many Guild guitars, especially 12 strings, were not held in stock but had to be ordered from the factory. They were not considered "special order". That was reserved for guitars that were made to the customers specific instructions. There were two years that the 612, 512, and 412 were offered as "Custom" variation with upgraded components. See the catalog images elsewhere in this thread.

All that being said, after considering all the opinions and suggested possibilities and especially when I talked to the guitar tech at South Austin Music and who spent some time going through the details, I believe the weight of evidence is heavily in favor of the guitar having been delivered to the man who first purchased it as we see it now. He did not get a standard issue Custom", as described by the catalog and then send it out to be changed. Without going over again what evidence was presented, the areas in question I can say with a high degree of certainty were original to the guitar. Was the work done by an employee of Guild? I can't say with 100% certainty. Was it NOT done by an employee of Guild? I can't say with 100% certainty. Neither could South Austin Music. BTW, they are an independent shop who've been in the same location for 39 years and deal primarily in vintage gear, though they do have some new stuff as well. They even had a new F-512.

You may have seen a 1970 F-512 for sale that was described as a prototype and apparently was described as such by Carlo Greco. It is very similar to this guitar in having the fret board and bridge inlays like the F-612 and a couple of other details. Now the son of original owner said his dad had a collection of high end acoustics from the Martin, Gibson, and Guild spanning the style range of each company. Guy must have had a shed load of money. I get the impression that he wanted each to be unique. Now if he had ordered a few from Guild and built a relationship it would be very possible that Guild built this guitar for him starting with a guitar that had not been completed. It has been suggested that Guild may well have had a few unfinished guitars of very low volume models like the F-512 Custom that would be finished only when ordered. They could have said, "Hey look, you want something unique. Could we try out a couple of ideas?" Might have been done with a phone call. Since the guitar was not ordered with specific specifications from the customer it might not have been considered a "Special" and considered a prototype. Prototypes are not normally marked as such. The one from 1970 was not. The guy gets it, likes it, and keeps it but there's no detailed paperwork. Thus a mystery is created. Or maybe they had built another prototype and when the guy called offered it to him. Either is conjecture, of course, but it would explain why the pick guard, finish, etc do very much appear to have been applied to a "raw" guitar. I can't imagine they would have sent it to some unknown 3rd party that way. Still, no proof positive.

All of that brings me back to believing the best description is "A 1972 F-512 Custom with customization believed to be original to the guitar, possibly done by the factory." It's academic really. End of the day I have a really great 12 string that's
very unique. Full disclosure, I paid $3,000 for it. When I think of the folks who commented that "No educated person on this board would ever buy that guitar," I just smile to myself and think, "Glad they didn't, Skippy."

 

[portsider]

The F-512 arrived today. It's pretty fab. Loud but well balanced. Neck in quite comfortable and overall pretty easy to play. You'll not it's very similar cosmetically to the one in the article you posted. Indian rosewood as opposed to Brazilian but a very nice piece of wood indeed. As you'll see, it's antique burst instead of natural and a really beautiful burst at that.

I understand these were special order back in the day but that Guild did not keep records of special orders. I've managed to find one like it online but am really curious how many may have been made. As they had to be ordered in advance I suspect very few.

Appreciate all the info so far. Thanks kindly.

Wow! that guitar is giving my F112 penis envy.

 

[fronobulax]

Thank you.

Was the work done by an employee of Guild?

To veer slightly we have seen instruments where all or some of the pieces were made in the factory and all or some of assembly and finish work was done at the factory. The completed instrument was not sold through an authorized dealer and found its way to market some other way. Many of these were "employee project" guitars and what was not done at the factory was completed by a Guild employee working on their own. The usual scenario was a partially completed instrument that was destined for the bandsaw or trash and went home instead. The flaws were correctable, just not cost effective for the factory to do so.

Prototypes are not normally marked as such.

"prototype" like "original" can have a very nuanced meaning but in this case I'll just point out that Guild did mark some prototypes as such but not, to my knowledge in the timeframe of your instrument.

 

[GGJaguar]

End of the day I have a really great 12 string that's very unique.

This is all that counts. Enjoy!

 

[adorshki]

Production numbers for the F-512 in 1972? I noted somewhere that I think only 29 were made in 68-69. Safe to assume the Custom version was likely 10% of that at most.

Per that catalog page Ralf posted "F512 Custom" was the model name, they were all "Customs". Reading between the lines I think they were called that because of the 17" body width (or 18" on the 612 which is also called "Custom").
Also note 29 pc would be 1 shy of a multiple of 6 so likely quite close to accurate. Frequently we see that in smaller runs: not all the pieces get completed to sellable condition. Problems crop up. Besides the vicissitudes of 50 years in the outside world.

After all the discussion back and forth, I own a very nice '72 F-512 Custom, which is a completely unique example of the breed. I do really appreciate the questions and comments that were made as they sent me on what has been quite a fascinating journey of discovery.

I'm reminded of the original automobile manufacturing method: you order the chassis and engine from the manufacturer and then send it to a body shop for a body. No two V16 Cadillacs or early Packards are the same but they all look great.

 

[Steve Power]

Thank you.



To veer slightly we have seen instruments where all or some of the pieces were made in the factory and all or some of assembly and finish work was done at the factory. The completed instrument was not sold through an authorized dealer and found its way to market some other way. Many of these were "employee project" guitars and what was not done at the factory was completed by a Guild employee working on their own. The usual scenario was a partially completed instrument that was destined for the bandsaw or trash and went home instead. The flaws were correctable, just not cost effective for the factory to do so.



"prototype" like "original" can have a very nuanced meaning but in this case I'll just point out that Guild did mark some prototypes as such but not, to my knowledge in the timeframe of your instrument.

I raised the idea of employee built on their own outside the auspices of the company but I believe someone said that was not allowed by Guild but I'm not entirely sure why I think that. Lot of conversation to remember. In any event, I know by all accounts in the first instance the original buyer ordered the guitar from Guild. What the chain of events was after that is all guess and conjecture but I think I narrowed it down as best as is possible without a DeLorean and a lightning strike.