Guild Custom 12s.

[adorshki]

I raised the idea of employee built on their own outside the auspices of the company but I believe someone said that was not allowed by Guild but I'm not entirely sure why I think that.

It was "tolerated" under narrow circumstances such as Frono explained but they didn't get s/n stamps and labels. Suspect the headstock stamp in particular would be difficult to fake. And they couldn't be offered as new factory pieces with warranty, that is, employee builds didn't enter regular production shipments.

Lot of conversation to remember.

Understood.

In any event, I know by all accounts in the first instance the original buyer ordered the guitar from Guild.

To me, that's all the "legitimacy" a piece of such low production and known factory variations needs. That rosette/pickguard, to me, is like a custom body on '30's cars.

 

[Steve Power]

It was "tolerated" under narrow circumstances such as Frono explained but they didn't get s/n stamps and labels. Suspect the headstock stamp in particular would be difficult to fake. And they couldn't be offered as new factory pieces with warranty, that is, employee builds didn't enter regular production shipments.



Understood.

To me, that's all the "legitimacy" a piece of such low production and known factory variations needs. That rosette/pickguard, to me, is like a custom body on '30's cars.

You know, it just occurred to me. Since it does have a serial number stamped into the headstock and a proper label on the inside, that makes it a Guild authorized guitar as opposed to an employee build. And since by every measure I can verify with inspection by myself all the appointments on the guitar are original to it, I'm back to leaning on it was more than likely done at the factory, though I will never know for sure.

 

[adorshki]

You know, it just occurred to me. Since it does have a serial number stamped into the headstock and a proper label on the inside, that makes it a Guild authorized guitar as opposed to an employee build. And since by every measure I can verify with inspection by myself all the appointments on the guitar are original to it, I'm back to leaning on it was more than likely done at the factory, though I will never know for sure.

Hans basically already confirmed it was a "legitimate" factory built guitar because he has the production records and can ID the s/n, he just couldn't say why it had the rosette and p/g.

Perfectly reasonable question and I understand the reasoning behind it. "How does one define 'original?' was a question I asked myself in working through this. I came to two alternatives, either it came as seen direct from the factory and so "original" in the normal sense or it was perhaps delivered to a 3rd party by the factory who was responsible for the non-factory features, then delivered it to the original purchaser, making it "original" to him as that is the way it was when he first laid eyes on the guitar. The description of being all original was what was said to the son of the man who first purchased the guitar. The son then repeated that description to the guy he sold to i.e. the guy I bought it from and who also described it as all original. Without any documentation, either answer will forever be conjecture.

That's how it goes, but the telling detail to me was SA Music's note about the rosette itself, that possibly Guild would have made the segments a bit less square and better fitted, which was where I originally mentioned "coarse".

BTW, it is my understanding that many Guild guitars, especially 12 strings, were not held in stock but had to be ordered from the factory. They were not considered "special order". That was reserved for guitars that were made to the customers specific instructions. There were two years that the 612, 512, and 412 were offered as "Custom" variation with upgraded components. See the catalog images elsewhere in this thread.

Nope, "Special Order" covered both instruments that were specially ordered by a customer like the Merle Travis or Tommy Smothers' D50's with F50 necks which ultimately became the D55, AND instruments that had to be ordered because they weren't made for production, as was the case with the D55 for the first 6 years and the F412/512 Customs. Typically though the customer orders were labeled "Special" like Smothers' D50's whereas "Special order standard models" were just labeled with their model number, like D55's from '68 to '74..

You may have seen a 1970 F-512 for sale that was described as a prototype and apparently was described as such by Carlo Greco. It is very similar to this guitar in having the fret board and bridge inlays like the F-612 and a couple of other details. Now the son of original owner said his dad had a collection of high end acoustics from the Martin, Gibson, and Guild spanning the style range of each company. Guy must have had a shed load of money. I get the impression that he wanted each to be unique. Now if he had ordered a few from Guild and built a relationship it would be very possible that Guild built this guitar for him starting with a guitar that had not been completed. It has been suggested that Guild may well have had a few unfinished guitars of very low volume models like the F-512 Custom that would be finished only when ordered. They could have said, "Hey look, you want something unique. Could we try out a couple of ideas?" Might have been done with a phone call. Since the guitar was not ordered with specific specifications from the customer it might not have been considered a "Special" and considered a prototype. Prototypes are not normally marked as such. The one from 1970 was not. The guy gets it, likes it, and keeps it but there's no detailed paperwork. Thus a mystery is created. Or maybe they had built another prototype and when the guy called offered it to him. Either is conjecture, of course, but it would explain why the pick guard, finish, etc do very much appear to have been applied to a "raw" guitar. I can't imagine they would have sent it to some unknown 3rd party that way. Still, no proof positive.

A well-reasoned presentation, and given the way Guild operated it's possible. Marc Dronge, son of Guild founder Al Dronge, took a "prototype" rosewood bodied F30 to Paul Simon in 1967 and Simon loved it. Thus was born the F30R and the Paul Simon signature edition. The Greco connection is also telling. There's those rectangular MOP blocks like the MerleTravis which is what originally made me open-minded about it, at least.

All of that brings me back to believing the best description is "A 1972 F-512 Custom with customization believed to be original to the guitar, possibly done by the factory." It's academic really. End of the day I have a really great 12 string that's
very unique. Full disclosure, I paid $3,000 for it. When I think of the folks who commented that "No educated person on this board would ever buy that guitar," I just smile to myself and think, "Glad they didn't, Skippy."

You mentioned you just wanted to be able to present as accurate a history as possible to it's next person. D) I think that description is truthful as you can make it. I'd be much more sympathetic to a seller who took pains to make its cloudy provenance clear than the typical "all original" descriptions which are lacking in any source/provenance references.

The additional history regarding the original owner helps me understand just how something like that could have happened, although I doubt highly Guild shipped to somebody else to "finish". On the other hand offering an on-hand piece that was a little "different" was well within the realm of possibility.

Also just remembered, have you looked at the finish under a blacklight? That might tell a story. NCL fluoresces sickly green(!) under blacklight, and a refin might show up as a slightly different shade. And the "ambering" mentioned sounds like the normal by-product of aging and primarily UV exposure. My D25 looks like it has an Amber finish, started off as a "Natural". Even makes the slightly-wider-than the bridge racing stripe down the middle of the top look downright light maple-syrup colored. I love it to death.

 

[Steve Power]

I doubt that Guild would have sent out a raw guitar to a third party as well. Thought I said that but I'm getting lost a bit.

Haven't tried the black light. Tony at SAM is positive it's an original finish. Don't know what you mean by "ambering". The finish is a two tone "sunburst".

I have to go back and look at Hans's comments. I seemed to have missed the verification of being a legitimate factory build. Don't know how I missed that. Need to print it out.

Being able to correctly describe the guitar to any potential buyer is very important to me, though I can't envision ever selling. My heirs would need to know though. I've made a list of all my guitars and amps with a description of each, what I paid for it, and what I feel it should sell for. I never really talked to anyone for any length at South Austin Music until the other day when I spoke both to the guitar tech and the owner. Very good people, both of them. I mentioned a Rickenbacker 660/12 Tom Petty that I'm thinking of selling. He had one in the shop, #88 out of 1000. A lower number even than mine. He dragged it out of the back and showed it to me. Jason Isabell was in town and wanted to buy it but he didn't want to pay what Bill wanted. He's decided it's not really for sale. Told me he'd take mine on consignment and get good money for it. They take a 20% commission, which I thought is fair. I've got two guitars I'll specify in my will but the rest I think I'll just instruct to take down to South Austin Music and let them sell the rest. Way easier for my wife or kid. Tidy piece of change I've got wrapped up in that stuff. Everything in the collection is worth more than I paid for it. My mother had a black belt in shopping and taught me well.

 

[fronobulax]

I raised the idea of employee built on their own outside the auspices of the company but I believe someone said that was not allowed by Guild but I'm not entirely sure why I think that. Lot of conversation to remember. In any event, I know by all accounts in the first instance the original buyer ordered the guitar from Guild. What the chain of events was after that is all guess and conjecture but I think I narrowed it down as best as is possible without a DeLorean and a lightning strike.

"employee builds" were not officially encouraged and in some cases involved the theft of materials from a source other than a dumpster. I didn't mention the possibility in your case because an authorized dealer who sold employee builds or post factory/pre-retail mods by an employee would almost certainly be asked to stop doing that when Guild found out

I've heard a T.A.R.D.I.S. is better than a DeLorean for these kinds of explorations - lots of interior space.

 

[fronobulax]

I will also reiterate my opinion, second only to Hans', that the instrument was at one time legitimately made in the factory and sold through the retail chain. The serial number and label pretty much make that true. So the questions concern the features that are not similar to other things from the factory. We have seen factory repairs that preserved the label and serial but involved top replacement and/or refinishing. We have seen necks from one model used on a body of another model as a factory repair. But the testimony is that the instrument was not repaired or modified at the factory after the original retail purchase so....

 

[SFIV1967]

Hans basically already confirmed it was a "legitimate" factory built guitar because he has the production records and can ID the s/n, he just couldn't say why it had the rosette and p/g.

I think you really need to read again what Hans really said... That guitar did not come from the factory with all those "features"...

Guild Custom 12s.

By the way, welcome aboard, @Steve Power . That's a nice entrance to LTG! :) That's an attractive, early F-512. Do you know anything about when it was re-topped or who did the work? Take a mirror to the inside of that soundboard and you might find more information about it. Really glad it's...

letstalkguild.com

Ralf

 

[adorshki]

I think you really need to read again what Hans really said... That guitar did not come from the factory with all those "features"...

Guild Custom 12s.

By the way, welcome aboard, @Steve Power . That's a nice entrance to LTG! :) That's an attractive, early F-512. Do you know anything about when it was re-topped or who did the work? Take a mirror to the inside of that soundboard and you might find more information about it. Really glad it's...

letstalkguild.com

Ralf

Forgive my casual abbreviated recap of his analysis. I never said he said all the details were original, only that it WAS built by Guild and he couldn't ID who did the re-work (by implication).

The real point was to confirm it was NOT an employee build.

 

[Steve Power]

Hans basically already confirmed it was a "legitimate" factory built guitar because he has the production records and can ID the s/n, he just couldn't say why it had the rosette and p/g.


That's how it goes, but the telling detail to me was SA Music's note about the rosette itself, that possibly Guild would have made the segments a bit less square and better fitted, which was where I originally mentioned "coarse".

Nope, "Special Order" covered both instruments that were specially ordered by a customer like the Merle Travis or Tommy Smothers' D50's with F50 necks which ultimately became the D55, AND instruments that had to be ordered because they weren't made for production, as was the case with the D55 for the first 6 years and the F412/512 Customs. Typically though the customer orders were labeled "Special" like Smothers' D50's whereas "Special order standard models" were just labeled with their model number, like D55's from '68 to '74..

A well-reasoned presentation, and given the way Guild operated it's possible. Marc Dronge, son of Guild founder Al Dronge, took a "prototype" rosewood bodied F30 to Paul Simon in 1967 and Simon loved it. Thus was born the F30R and the Paul Simon signature edition. The Greco connection is also telling. There's those rectangular MOP blocks like the MerleTravis which is what originally made me open-minded about it, at least.

You mentioned you just wanted to be able to present as accurate a history as possible to it's next person. D) I think that description is truthful as you can make it. I'd be much more sympathetic to a seller who took pains to make its cloudy provenance clear than the typical "all original" descriptions which are lacking in any source/provenance references.

The additional history regarding the original owner helps me understand just how something like that could have happened, although I doubt highly Guild shipped to somebody else to "finish". On the other hand offering an on-hand piece that was a little "different" was well within the realm of possibility.

Also just remembered, have you looked at the finish under a blacklight? That might tell a story. NCL fluoresces sickly green(!) under blacklight, and a refin might show up as a slightly different shade. And the "ambering" mentioned sounds like the normal by-product of aging and primarily UV exposure. My D25 looks like it has an Amber finish, started off as a "Natural". Even makes the slightly-wider-than the bridge racing stripe down the middle of the top look downright light maple-syrup colored. I love it to death.

I looked again at Han's comments. It would appear he thought the guitar was originally a factory issued instrument but that the cosmetic items in question were not done by Guild. He also felt that these elements were possibly, if not likely, done as repairs of some sort. He used the term "overhaul". He qualified his opinion a bit by stating that was as far as he could go without having the guitar in hand. A close in hand inspection by a well qualified professional with over 30 years experience gave the opinion that none of this work was a result of any repair. No evidence that there was ever any damage and much evidence that the elements in question are original to the guitar. This and the back story led me to my conclusion and how I describe the instrument mentioned earlier.

I would mention just one detail that Hans commented on, the neck binding. The body binding has two thin black stripes. The neck has just one thicker stripe. Whether or not the single stripe was a Guild element as well or not, I don't know. At first I thought since the white part of the neck binding is lighter than the rest, maybe it was replaced, however strange that might be. However, when I looked again I noticed that it's only lighter where the fretting hand comes into frequent contact. As you go up the neck closer to the body It then gets darker The lighter shade is simply where the hand rubbed off some of the smoke etc. that causes white binding to get that patina. Where the neck and body binding meet, and little before, the shading matches pretty much exactly.