New here, got the Guild bug again... in two parts ;-)

[Guildedagain]

Yep, probably. I just watched a video this morning on properly cutting, and buffing on a wheel, seems like something good to invest in, I already have a great buffer motor and some cloth wheels in fact, in fact I may have everything I need to send a guitar flying across the woodshed ;-)

We were visiting the Santa Cruz guitar factory (wife, her sister who just bought one at Griffon Guitars, and I), they had some amazing wood and guitars being built in there... and when we got to the polishing booth, I asked Ken [Hoover], "how many guitar can you let go of in there and still keep your job?" LOLLLL He said "one" and gave me a look...

Anyway, I can't get over how beautiful the Guild turned out, really something, to "polish a turd" like that, it was more like waving a magic stick. It's literally not the same guitar....

I remember a buddy of mine doing this to a really nice LP flametop that had the dreaded satin finish a few years ago... I only learned about this later, but... kinda funny as hell and kinda not ;-) He used steel wool to knock the finish down before polishing, with the guitar fully assembled and I imagine the p'ups taped off (I say I imagine because he's a guitar tech, playing and selling guitars at the local music store for twenty plus years), anyway long story short (pun intended;-))) is that the next time he got on stage with that thing, it was shorting out something terrible, the steel wool had gotten into everything, I think he just about had to gut the guitar to get rid of it...

But the night he played it live, I guess it was a total disaster, he didn't know what was going on, kept thinking it was cords or something else... he probably figured it out and switched guitars, but still embarrassing as hell! LOLOLLLLLL

This is Mr. together, like a million dollar studio, extensive guitar collection, etc. If you worked for a music store that deals in new and used for twenty years, you'd have "an extensive collection" as that is where your paychecks go... ;-)

But hey, at least that Les Paul looked like a million bucks after getting a proper buff job ;-)

 

[Neal]

Man, I would be tempted to heat that pickguard up, get it off of there, clean off the glue with naphtha, polish the top where it rested, string it up, and play!

 

[adorshki]

(NOTE: I just realized I started composing this before I finished reading all the posts so forgive any redundant comments, consider 'em instead as "corroboration")

inside, the guitar was slightly padded inside the case, but basically tuned up to pitch... but sort of horribly out of tune, of course... because what 12 string guitars sound like, right?

Guilds will hold tune better than any other. The dual truss rods help by compensating better for the large difference in tension from bass to treble.
Prevents neck twist as long as they aren't mis-adjusted, especially over-torqued (We've seen a couple of split necks that might have been caused by that).
If nothing else those would cement Guild's primacy in 12-strings but it's one of the magic ingredients nobody else had.

So, I tuned it up a little, and played it, and... it was pretty amazing actually. I had a moment, a couple pretty good moments where it sounded more or less fantastic belting out some chords, Pinball Wizard... and picking it, and I realized, wow...

What'd we tell ya?

This guitar, this 1992 Guild D4-12NT is in virtually unplayed condition!!!

SCORE!!!

a new pack of SIT strings (but they look twenty years old), 10's, which is kinda neat, because that is the exact set I had ordered on eBay in anticipation of the Guild getting here ;-) Next up, a really cool complete set of D'angelico Silk & Steel strings, looking neatly vintage, and a business card from the store, quite possibly, where it sold new!

10's were the spec for those. Silk'n'steels definitely cost some volume/chiminess but are very kind to the neckset.

Anyway, back to the guitar, it seems ok. The action is a little high, but totally playable, in fact it was very nicely playable.

Factory action spec 5.5-6/64ths bass E at 12th fret, 4.5-5.5/64ths treble side, and there should be plenty of saddle there for lowering if desired. Both my Westerlys came perfectly set up out of the box, and notice how well the saddle profile matches the fretboard radius, too. Be sure not to mess that up. It's one of those dozens of little things that made Westerlys so good. And playable.

It's a little plain... that satin finish, it's not my cup of tea

Yeah it was one of the economy elements of a D4, it's called "Hand Rubbed" and was an NCL gel.
Didn't need multiple coats/drying/buffing time, but it does get smoother/glossier with buffing

removed the extra strap button, which looks like it could be from a vintage Strat (another nice touch), and was drilled just below the heel of the neck in the body, Something a little different than what I'm used to seeing.

I'm VERY sure that was not "factory", but at least it's mounted into the heelblock so it's got secure footing, won't go tearing up the back.
Guild normally didn't put strap pins on anything but A/E's, and those were on the side near the neck with a reinforcing block inside the guitar.

And the top is not so bad either, with nice figure all over the place, in fact looks like it may be bookmatched, it's got some downward chevron pattern on the upper bouts that looks like it could be bookmatched, also a lot of odd, but matching patterns, all fairly 3D, everything moves as you move around.

Yes, bookmatched and quartersawn, another coupla those Westerly details that reveal themselves to the discerning afficionado.
Westerly was small enough to buy wood directly from sources instead of needing brokers to pool up large quantities, and their grader was very very picky. What they called AA (like your D4-12) some makers would call AAA and their 4-A sitka's pretty amazing.

I reassembled everything, it killed me not to string it, but... really should address the pickguard thing before the strings go back on.

Reading this article here, seems like fairly solid info. Additional input is welcome on this topic.

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/Pickguards/ReglueGuard/reglueguard.html

Frank Ford's one of our heroes and it sounds like you've got the skills to be able to follow his technique. My only concern would be as I mentioned before, that silicones in polishes can leach under the guard and interfere with good glue bonding, but hopefully any contamination that may have occurred so far will be too little to cause a problem.
When I first mentioned that I'd forgotten early D4's were HR and unlikely to have been polished anyway.

What is the deal with satin finish on guitars anyway, is there a point? Guitars are supposed to be glossy, shiny things...

Again, "economy", but I agree.

Couple more notes;

Fingerboard is amazingly dark, very pleasantly surprised there.

Like I said, their grader was very selective, and in '92 that quality of wood was still readily available at a reasonable price. It might actually be a South American variety known as "Morado". Not a true rosewood but just as good for the fretboard application.

We anxiously await the unveiling pics and a blood-spotted sheet hanging from the villa wall.

 

[Guildedagain]

Ok, thx for the many kind words and info, for this I must reward with some kind of pic, even if of just the cat...

I'm finding out that it is difficult to get good pics of "Hog", as y'all like to call it (took me a couple days to figure it out... ;-), but to the viewer in person, in the aforementioned sun, it is very sweet indeed.

Yes, it's spec'd as Morado, which made me slightly apprehensive (I'd never heard of it), but this is as dark as any good Rosewood, and still has nice grain visible. I wouldn't have known it was anything other if it hadn't been mentioned. All and all, I'd have to say the build quality (and it feels TOUGH too) is as good as anything from the 60's, and the quality of the timber is just as high.

Very impressed with it so far, and that's just as an ornament ;-)

To address the post about removing the guard, you mean just go "Guardless?

A "regardless" joke must be just around the corner... That's when you go guardless, again.

Speaking of the pickguard, it is really growing on me, especially now that I look thru the fog of love... everything looks better. When I first looked at it in the ad pics, the guard looked bigger than the other Guilds, and I wasn't crazy about how it went that close to the bridge. Now, I appreciate it more, and I like symmetry of the matching down angles going out towards the edges of the guard, and I like the "tortoise", it really looks nice ;-)

Go to Guitar Center and look at new guitars for examples of horrible celluloid, like Fender's remake of the tortoise guards... Ick ;-( We sent man to the moon in '69, now, going on 50 years later, we're neither "going back to the moon" nor are we able to make even close to comparable pickguard material... which begs the question, then "how have we advanced?" We might be starting to slowly spiral downward, I'm not sure... yet.

Anyway, I probably can't do a guardless guitar. I don't even like LP's without a pickguard... It's like a skirt to me, there's something hidden underneath, you can't see it all. To me they mostly always complement the guitar, with some exceptions. It's one of the few adornments on this guitar, in fact, pretty bare bones.

So, here's a few shots I culled out, keep in mind rough shooting conditions, shooting in full sun to show grain, the light has not been kind the last couple days of mostly high winds and cold temps (hard frost two nights ago, ouch!) Anyway, an acoustic guitar is something thing needs to be shot just right, in just the right light to capture it correctly, hopefully when it's all done I can pull off a couple nice glamour shots that are worthy.

Here was the box, in my "Boxvan", an old IHC Stepvan that is my yard office, eBay shipping depot, etc. It's an old Bookmobile, wayyy cool ;-) I always fantasize I'll live in it one day, wandering the warm south in the winter, with my Guild, pure fantasy... ;-)

Nice original Guild case, just how I like it. It's only original once...

Finally, unveiled, she's pretty sweet, with a lot of hidden potential. Looks like it's basically never been played much, zero signs of playing wear, makes you wonder...

Already in pieces... you can see the color coming thru where I lightly buffed it between the tuners. It would have been a crime not to buff this guitar to a high gloss and show off the woodgrain!

My, what a lot of cute little baby Grover tuners ;-) It's weird, but up until about a month ago, I didn't have a single one of these on a guitar, then I picked up that Hondo Fame 760/12 that has twelve of these, chrome just like the Guild, and the Washburn that's on the "Butcher Block" has twelve gold ones, one of which was busted, which I replaced off eBay, found someone selling four NOS ones for an ok price, or I would have been screwed.

It was a bass side Gold Mini Grover, and I have three more (same side), complete down to the screw, never been on a guitar. I will probably part with one or two if anybody needs one. I would also trade for an equal number of treble side Gold Mini Grovers that I can have for spare parts.

Here it is in the throes of being seriously worked over. Now I feel stupid for not wet sanding it first, but oh well, and maybe it gets more of a worn in look this way, which was very "energetic" rubbing with compounds only. It was really rewarding when the polish started coming off, and the next level, and the next level... I had a "buffer's high", and the colors coming out (once walking out into the sun) were amazing, deep chocolate browns coming from the back, really beautiful honey amber from the sides, and I really though I'd overdone it where I started seeing "Purple Hues" (something I need to trademark right away ;-), coming from the sides of the headstock as I was buffing the living daylights out of it...

It was weird, I was kinda looking into the sun, the polish started coming off with this amazing backlit shine, and the edges were softly glowing purple, which I think was the UV's hitting the pigment in the finish and causing a reaction, the finish is acting like a light filter and refracting a purple hue?


Work really does "set you free"...

Well, I wouldn't have mentioned it... I tried it on my wife first, she was not totally impressed... it was more like "do you have any plans for dinner?" ;-) "But Honey, I saw Purple Hues"! Oh well... And then, looking through the pics, I swear you can see it where the headstock is at the edge of the sunlight, so I mentioned it. It's real ;-) Really... I hope it comes thru your computer screen.

You can see big puffy clouds in the sky.

I have to post the rest below, I'm exceeding the eight pic per post limit (?).

 

[Guildedagain]

Part 2 of last post.

Finally, post buffing, looking sexy on a summer bed set up outside, bugnet over the top throwing interesting shadows... That's the problem with making an instrument high shine, it becomes extremely difficult to photograph, "angle of incidence is the angle of reflectance" and all that...

Back on the bench, the lifting pickguard issue. Of course the guitar would have been a lot more fun to buff with the pickguard glued correctly, as I had to make sure not to get any polish or fibers under it... Would have been a lot smarter to fix that first, I guess I'm not that smart. In the words of Forest Gump "I am not a smart man"...

Back out in the sun, definitely some 3D thing going on, as Adorshki said, yes these are bookmatched tops, so that confirms what I was seeing there. It's a very interesting top!

Pics can't do this justice, the camera can't capture how intricate the wood grain is like the human eye can. Very impressive neck joint/BEEFY Neck carved from solid chunk, quite impressive.

The heel of the neck has some really neat twisting grain, a little harder to see.

Look at the figure in the neck, some nice subtle striping there. I've seen this on a few vintage SG's and Les Pauls, guitars with really nice wood. This is on the level with that.

Out in the morning wind for a garden gate shot, the light is not very pleasing, but it still looks nice... and a shot of the back that shows off the "carved" errrrr... arched back very well ;-)

Working on making the cauls for gluing the pickguard, as usual, the prep is 90% of the work ;-)


Long live the Guilds of Westerly!

 

[adorshki]

It was weird, I was kinda looking into the sun, the polish started coming off with this amazing backlit shine, and the edges were softly glowing purple, which I think was the UV's hitting the pigment in the finish and causing a reaction, the finish is acting like a light filter and refracting a purple hue?

Interesting question, I've only ever heard of "purplish hues" being attributed to Braz rosewood.
I've never seen an "official" color name for the stain but it's darker than others that were used on D40's and a couple of other 'hog back guitars, I always called it "burgundy", Hans has called it "wine colored".
Note the natural color of the 'hog is visible on the back on the inside, and those inside and outside layers were cut sequentially from a block ("IIRC", Westerly bought the veneer already sheeted from a furniture materials supplier, didn't actually do that themsleves) and usually wound up in the same instrument so the grain patterns should match.
So much so that some folks have been convinced those arched backs are actually solid.
Ah, it just hit me: Furniture veneer.
Might explain its very high visual quality.
My D25 apparently has a fluke where the inside piece got rotated 180 degrees, that's how I first figured out it was laminate, before I ever heard of this place.
But I quickly realized that meant it was actually stronger than if it was a carved solid.
After I joined here, one of the ex Westerly workers told me that would have technically been a production error, normally they did want to match the grain direction inside and outside.
Another one of those "dozens of little details"...

Well, I wouldn't have mentioned it... I tried it on my wife first, she was not totally impressed... it was more like "do you have any plans for dinner?" ;-) "But Honey, I saw Purple Hues"! Oh well... And then, looking through the pics, I swear you can see it where the headstock is at the edge of the sunlight, so I mentioned it. It's real ;-) Really... I hope it comes thru your computer screen.

So, uh, I'm guessin' you never showed her any of those old pics of you in tie-dyes before you got married?
:highly_amused:

 

[adorshki]

Pics can't do this justice, the camera can't capture how intricate the wood grain is like the human eye can. Very impressive neck joint/BEEFY Neck carved from solid chunk, quite impressive.

Your posts bring back so many memories of all the little details I discovered myself in the first couple of weeks after buying my D25, which was the guitar that begat the D4. They even all started with the same bodies on the production line.
D25's got back binding, high-gloss finish, pearloid headstock inlay on the Natural tops, and you could get optional colors.
Later on in the late '90's the D4 got all that stuff too.
Yeah, that heel: I thought to myself "They get it! SO much easier to get up to the 12th fret that way!"
Same thing on the headstock end, none of that easy-to-snap separate peghead nonsense, it really is all one piece of 'hog.

Long live the Guilds of Westerly!

Amen to that, you'll find plenty of compadres here.
Keep 'em comin!

 

[adorshki]

Back on the bench, the lifting pickguard issue. Of course the guitar would have been a lot more fun to buff with the pickguard glued correctly, as I had to make sure not to get any polish or fibers under it... Would have been a lot smarter to fix that first, I guess I'm not that smart. In the words of Forest Gump "I am not a smart man"...

Something just occurred to me about the symmetrical ways it appears to be lifting around the edge (as in photo of it leaning on gate):
I'd bet that was glued on the same way Guild glued their bridges:
They masked off a "pad" smaller than the outline of the bridge, applied finish, then glued on bridge afterwards.
it was very clean cosmetically but perforce there was always some glue adhering to finish underneath the bridge and that bond wasn't as strong as the wood-to-glue bond. Over time string tension pulling at back of bridge could cause the bridge to lift very slightly at back edge.
The 'guards, being a form of nitrocellulose plastic, do out-gas and shrink over time, and this looks like what happened to a guard the was glued the same way the bridge was, in this case the shrinkage causing it to pull finish away from the wood with it, where it overlapped the finish.
Sheer speculation on my part and if I'm wrong I hope Hans corrects me, but it simply occurred to me that with the HR finish that might have been another way to economize in assembly.
Might also help you refine your plan of attack.

 

[Guildedagain]

Here's another shot [I didn't want to post because it is not flattering] showing the curling of the outer edges of the guard very well, definitely good for the "before" picture...

 

[GuildFS4612CE]

pickguard material shrinks with age, as noted above...just replace it with a new one.

 

[adorshki]

pickguard material shrinks with age, as noted above...just replace it with a new one.

Bingo, you're probably right, probably a lot less hassle and not hard to find.
So uh, is it ok if I call you a sensible girl?
:love-struck:

 

[Guildedagain]

Made a couple quickie cauls, and got 'er clamped down for the night. Trying hard to stay away from it and to stop worrying about it...

 

[Guildedagain]

Unveiled it the next day, didn't take... and I probably rushed it. I was nervous about too much clamping force, lack of any experience, probably tried to pre clean too much of the glue?

Cleaned it all up better than before, used more glue than before, worked slower than before, less nervous than before, clamped the dickens out of it (within reason), and this time let it go for 24 hrs before having a peak (Titebond II), finally looked at it about 2pm today, and viola! It's glued down, I just need to figure out a way to clean it up without loosening the guard, get that done and I can string er up!

I've been refusing to play any other guitars until this is done, I want to play this one. Saving myself...

 

[Guildedagain]

Didn't stick much better, after scraping the glue from the edges, the edge glue is what was holding the guard down. Let down your guard... so change of plans, need to remove the guard, clean underneath, flatten the guard with a an iron, reinstall. So I got the heat gun, couldn't find the hair drier... tried that a little without much success, and went for another warming method that is an iron and aluminum blocks, which I just happened to have. Started warming it, and went I went to see about removing the guard is was actually flattening out... so I removed the iron, and let it sit until cool with an assortment of weights on the the alu blocks, which hold their temperature for a stupid long time...

Finally removed the weights, and the guard is flat! But... you can see random micro chunks of old glue, etc... causing tiny high spots. Really would have been much better off pulling the guard, cleaning thoroughly, flattening the guard and reinstalling.

So now I'm torn between leaving it and stringing, or heating, removing, etc and doing a proper job that I can always look at and be proud of. Tough call as it looks fine at a glance...

I knocked a little shine off the guard with toothpaste so the slight lumpiness is less obvious and I have yet to look at it this morning to get a fresh impression.

Had I known all I needed to do was more or less iron the guard flat, I wound't have wasted two days trying to glue the stupid thing, live and learn...

 

[adorshki]

Finally removed the weights, and the guard is flat! But... you can see random micro chunks of old glue, etc... causing tiny high spots. Really would have been much better off pulling the guard, cleaning thoroughly, flattening the guard and reinstalling.

That may actually be hide glue. It crystallizes when drying. I know for sure Westerly used it exclusively in constructing bodies, but I only just now realized I don't know if that's what they used for pickguards as well.
I always just assumed they used it for everything.
If there was a thin layer still on the guard that may explain why Titebond din't take the first time around.

 

[Guildedagain]

Yeah what a mess... I'm looking for a pickguard, help!

Bad timing, nothing comes up anywhere for a Guild dreadnought pickguard, not only that, but I don't wan't horrible looking tortoise material, wood might be an option?

And in regards to running no pickguard, I was pretty shocked when I finally got the glue off the finish that it was fairly heavily gauged, but way under the guard, much further than I went went around with a pallet knife. So... somebody changed the guard (and was pretty rough with it), now that I'm looking at pics of other D4's on the net, I can see why it was changed out.


Don't ask what happened to the pickguard... Let's just say I'm glad I have a tracing...

 

[adorshki]

And in regards to running no pickguard, I was pretty shocked when I finally got the glue off the finish that it was fairly heavily gauged, but way under the guard, much further than I went went around with a pallet knife. So... somebody changed the guard (and was pretty rough with it), now that I'm looking at pics of other D4's on the net, I can see why it was changed out.

?!?!? You didn't like the tortoise anyway?
All the natural tops should have a tortoise type 'guard although the pattern varied slightly, and even the outlines, but I see they look pretty dark in some photos.
That guard was a genuine Guild I'm sure, but it may have been from slightly different period, I see now from the shape.

Don't ask what happened to the pickguard... Let's just say I'm glad I have a tracing...

W-e-e-ll...if you've gone that far you might as well look for some veneer that's to your taste..:friendly_wink:

 

[geoguy]

I think that tortoise would suit that guitar best, but black can also look really nice on some guitars. I went that route recently with a guard that had shrunk.

Did you see the options available directly from Guild?

https://shop.guildguitars.com/product-category/parts/acousticguitars/pickguards/

 

[adorshki]

https://shop.guildguitars.com/product-category/parts/acousticguitars/pickguards/

One thing to call and ask 'em about, is if those are adhesive-backed like the 2nd 'guard that came with my D40.
I suspect they are because they show "leftys", which are really just "righty's" with the adhesive on the correct side to be a lefty.
Anyway, point being you might need to know if that adhesive will work with bare wood or if it can be mixed with something else...
The second thing is to check whether the one I think will work (6dn) actually has a radius that matches the rosette's.
Those may have changed over time but traditionally the edge matched the rosette perfectly.
Looking at your photos again I think that guard was maybe shaped a bit to fit the 12, they had wider necks, so it might not have matched the rosette radius, without extra shaping, and the edges would have been beveled down on a factory 'guard. (At least, they are on both my Westerlys, but not the D40's extra 'guard.)
So, pretty sure those are left over "parts" stock, just not sure if the rosette radius remained the same over all the different factories.

 

[gjmalcyon]

Yeah what a mess... I'm looking for a pickguard, help!

Don't ask what happened to the pickguard... Let's just say I'm glad I have a tracing...

My Tacoma-built DV6 suffered from a migrating pick guard. During the (almost) careful removal process, I creased it.'

Guild could not identify a suitable replacement pick guard from their store, and the tan line left by the original guard removed a transparent pick guard as an option.

Instead I went the Stewart-MacDonald route:

This for the pick guard material.

And this to stick it down.