Price and the perception of quality

[Br1ck]

If someone wants to own old guitars, it's just a fact of life you need an upkeep budget. I play a lot, and need a fret level and crown every five years or so one each guitar I own. This is very much akin to tires wearing out. This is a foreign concept to some. So most years something will need a level and crown which eventually leads to a fret job. I can not tell you the improvement in tone and feel a fret level will provide. I would say that for me it is a bigger improvement than going from a $3000 guitar to a $6000 guitar, a jump I've never thought worth it.

Today will be interesting in that I'm going to Sylvan in Santa Cruz to try some 60s and 70s Martins, plus they have a 70 Guild D 35 just like mine to try out. Somehow spending $6000 on an old guitar isn't so outrageous to me as spending on a SCGC in the new room is. Anyway, I won't be buying anything, just feeling stir crazy after all the rain. I have played quite a few 50 year old guitars that did nothing for me.

My best money spent in the last year was having my Weber mandolin worked on. That was $550. Nothing more major than a new nut, but many details. It transformed the mandolin. I could have spent $5000 or more to get the same. I have a very developed sense of what I like, and an ultra resonant refined sound is not what I'm interested in. I like straight braced older Martins over the Authentics, good as they are. But I can be very happy playing any dread I own, and some are worth twice+ what others are. All are relatively modest. And I really prize a guitar where you can hear the dreaded clunk sound and not find the new ding.

 

[HeyMikey]

I bought a new Martin. It was very nice. Then I bought a used Guild. Thought it sounded better (more balanced) for my style of playing. I sold the Martin and bought a second used Guild. Two terrific used Guilds for the price of a new Martin.

I bought a used Santa Cruz. Amazing guitar. Then I bought a used Orpheum. It is (to me) just as good for 2/3 the price. I sold the Santa Cruz.

I like trying new things and would love to try a Collings some day, but so far used Guilds still seem to be the best value to me. I have a couple that cost me about $700 each that are truly wonderful. No brainer.

 

[Westerly Wood]

You could have bought an F612.

Twice.

 

[crank]

So I'm not very experienced with high-end guitars. Never played a Collings or a Santa Cruz. Played a lot of Martins and Gibsons.

I feel like my G37 more than holds its own in both tone and playability but these are guitars that would maybe go for 2-3K and my G37 around 1K, maybe a bit less because of checking and dings.

In my opinion when you are looking at the lower end models of brand name guitars, both acoustic and electric, you are overpaying and will get a better instrument with the "lesser" brands. You guys know what they are for the most part.

With electrics I have been impressed by some of the ESP, LTD Les Paul shaped guitars, especially ones that have been upgraded to Semour Duncan pups.

Yamaha makes some great sounding and playing acoustics in the 500 - 1K range.

 

[davismanLV]

You could have bought an F612.

Yeah, but imagine having one and not being able to afford strings for it.....

 

[Westerly Wood]

Yeah, but imagine having one and not being able to afford strings for it.....

It might have broken me.

 

[Br1ck]

I went to Sylvan in Santa Cruz to play a 70 D 35 just like mine. Alas, they had sold it. But in their vintage room were half a dozen Martins from the 70s. All had had neck resets and were ready to go. There was a 64 D 18 that knocked my socks off both with what a straight braced D 18 can be and the $6000 price. The 70s fare were all $3500-4000. Sylvan makes them top notch before they sell them. There was a 77 Guild D 50 that was their equal, though on the heavy side less than $2000 if I recall correctly. Two good but not great 50 LG2s around $4500. Like the counter guy said, people buy them.

My money would have gone to either a 60 LG0, sweet little guitar at $1600, or one of the new IRIS guitars that nail the dry old Gibson tone pretty well. $2600-2800. All the SCGCs were in the $7000 up and the Froggys were $10,000 plus. There are folks with money to spend.

 

[Neal]

I have been blessed to have played and owned some really good guitars over the years. Vintage Martins. Vintage Gibsons. Small shop guitars from Rockbridge and Huss & Dalton. All bought on the used market. Never spent more than $3000 for any of them.

I have found no rhyme or reason as to why some have stuck around for years and get played regularly, while others were gone within six months. All good quality. All well-researched. All bought off of the internet with no chance to play first. Total crap shoot.

Some are outstanding keepers (like a 1949 Gibson J-50 that looks like it was dragged down the road for a few miles but just has THAT tone). Some were inexplicably bad and were quickly sold (like a 1960 Martin D-18 that sounded like it was stuffed with dirty laundry). A lot fell somewhere in the middle.

In the final analysis, I keep what I play and I sell what I don't. I am eyeing a few to sell these days because they don't get much love. Another player may love them more. Someone should love every well-made guitar. They should never get forgotten and shoved under a bed.

 

[walrus]

I paid a decent sum for my '09 Sadowsky Semi-Hollow a few years ago. It's my only electric guitar. I wanted what I wanted, much like West talked about. The guitar had to be lightweight after a few surgeries I had. I preferred one volume and one tone, with two pickups, and I definitely wanted humbuckers.

I tried a new Sadowsky Semi-Hollow at a boutique shop about an hour away and loved everything about it. But the price was almost $5K!

So I watched and waited for a deal on a used one, and eventually found the one I bought on Reverb. It is worth the money? It is to me. I play it all the time - the feel of the neck, etc. is perfect for me. 6 lbs., beautifully built. 15” body width at lower bout, 1-¾” body depth . Very versatile and very "acoustic" sounding unplugged as well. I've had a few email exchanges about it with Roger Sadowsky, which was cool.

I'm certainly in the minority on LTG with only one acoustic and one electric, but they are exactly what I want. Now I just play them as much a possible.






walrus

 

[richt54]

I paid $300 for my brand new '76 D25M w/hsc. Best money I ever spent.

Louise

 

[fronobulax]

Louise

"Well they all said Louise was not half bad"

 

[kbraker]

I have a D120 ce
Looking at an OM120 and a F150ce
My perception is the specs for the money. The level that imports are coming in at are really really great. I don t see the need to spend the money for a USA made product when an import meets and exceeds my needs and expectations.

 

[HeyMikey]

I think a lot also has to do with what appeals to the individual. Everyone’s style and preference is different. We’ve seen plenty of examples where one person doesn’t “bond” with a guitar and sells it to another who is head over heals in love with it. I have a sound in my head and a feel in my hands. When I find something that tingles those senses I know it. Whether it costs a little or a lot matters little in terms of what appeals to me.

I used to belong to a wine tasting group for over 10 years. We’d meet monthly and do a blind tasting of a half dozen similar style wines often with some damn good ringers from someone’s cellar. One of our greatest thrills was finding a cheap wine that scored well against the pricey top growths or crus.

If it has the “it” factor it has it. If it doesn’t it doesn’t and the price becomes inconsequential. Buy what you like not how it’s priced.

 

[West R Lee]

I think a lot also has to do with what appeals to the individual. Everyone’s style and preference is different. We’ve seen plenty of examples where one person doesn’t “bond” with a guitar and sells it to another who is head over heals in love with it. I have a sound in my head and a feel in my hands. When I find something that tingles those senses I know it. Whether it costs a little or a lot matters little in terms of what appeals to me.

I used to belong to a wine tasting group for over 10 years. We’d meet monthly and do a blind tasting of a half dozen similar style wines often with some damn good ringers from someone’s cellar. One of our greatest thrills was finding a cheap wine that scored well against the pricey top growths or crus.

If it has the “it” factor it has it. If it doesn’t it doesn’t and the price becomes inconsequential. Buy what you like not how it’s priced.

And everyone's "perception" is different. You may like a sweet wine, and I like a dry. You might like a particular dry wine, but I like another dry wine. You may have a $25 limit on a particular wine, but I may enjoy a $100 bottle, but we both enjoy what we bought and feel there is value in our purchase. That is the perception of the individual.

So then in regards to the topic of this thread, you may think that $1000 is your limit in buying a guitar, and that you can do no better than the $1000 you spend. On the other hand, I may believe just as adamantly that a guitar costing $7000 is worth every penny.

So it makes no difference what you or I think, as long as the buyer is happy with his/her purchase.

perception
noun

UK

/pəˈsep.ʃən/ US

/pɚ-/

perception noun (BELIEF)​

C2 [ C ]
a belief or opinion, often held by many people and based on how things seem:

So you see, perception is merely an opinion.

West

 

[Br1ck]

There is the oft overlooked self delusion. You really need to be honest with yourself. My playing a few older Gibson and Martin guitars this week, then going home to my D 35 did reinforce the value I place on my D 35. It compared very favorably to everything I played except the 64 D 18. But the D 18 wasn't qualitatively better, it just had the D 18 sound I like best. Many would want a modern D 18.

As long as you don't kid yourself, you can play the value game. Experience will be the only teacher here. There are many not so good vintage guitars out there. If you've never played a good one, the two LG2s I played would have sounded great. Same with BRW D 28s, get a good one and, wow.

 

[West R Lee]

There is the oft overlooked self delusion. You really need to be honest with yourself. My playing a few older Gibson and Martin guitars this week, then going home to my D 35 did reinforce the value I place on my D 35. It compared very favorably to everything I played except the 64 D 18. But the D 18 wasn't qualitatively better, it just had the D 18 sound I like best. Many would want a modern D 18.

As long as you don't kid yourself, you can play the value game. Experience will be the only teacher here. There are many not so good vintage guitars out there. If you've never played a good one, the two LG2s I played would have sounded great. Same with BRW D 28s, get a good one and, wow.

I think you need to be honest with yourself! But then, you're certainly entitled yo your opinion. As am I. Brick, if you think you can change my opinion, well that's impossible. I'm old enough, have been around long enough, and have played enough guitars of a variety of brands to know what I like. But you could be suffering from self delusion.

By the way, I love Santa Cruz guitars as well. I've played several SC, and have owned one. Gotta go, I'm thinking about looking at some Olson guitars. I'm considering this one.

SJ Cutaway '91 | Reverb

Natural, Serial number 289, SJ body shape with the Florentine cutaway, Cedar top, Mother of Pearl Rosette, Flame Maple back and sides, Ivoroid binding with the Herringbone top edge trim, Herringbone back purfling, Wide/slim shaped Mahogany/Maple/Rosewood neck, Bound 14" radius Ebony fingerboard w...

reverb.com

West

 

[richt54]

So I'm not very experienced with high-end guitars. Never played a Collings or a Santa Cruz. Played a lot of Martins and Gibsons.

I feel like my G37 more than holds its own in both tone and playability but these are guitars that would maybe go for 2-3K and my G37 around 1K, maybe a bit less because of checking and dings.

In my opinion when you are looking at the lower end models of brand name guitars, both acoustic and electric, you are overpaying and will get a better instrument with the "lesser" brands. You guys know what they are for the most part.

With electrics I have been impressed by some of the ESP, LTD Les Paul shaped guitars, especially ones that have been upgraded to Semour Duncan pups.

Yamaha makes some great sounding and playing acoustics in the 500 - 1K range.

As I stated previously, when it comes to Guild guitars ,and other longer term members would know this much better than I, Guilds seemed to be able to be purchased quite inexpensively. Prices have seem to have come up within the last couple of years. I purchased Dan’s (Longnose Gar) JF55-12 for $2199 including the shipping. He had it repaired and set up by his local shop. It cost him a fair amount which at the price he sold it to me for he did not recover. He, for his assorted reasons did not or could not bond to this guitar. I absolutely love playing this guitar. Its tweaked to perfection in regards to repair and set up. To me (in the current market) it’s worth every penny. There are those on this board that thought it was overpriced. I respect that. But my head is not steeped in the market of the not to distant past. In regards to my recent acquisition of my 2018 F40 traditional, some people might have thought I paid too much at $1300. But my market sense told me otherwise. If I wanted to be brief I could have said “cada loco con su teme!” Spanish for “to each their own”. Just an aside. In the past I have purchased very nice used Santa Cruz OM’s and a Vintage Southern for less than 2k. I’m aghast at the current prices. So I’m not unsympathetic to those that think I paid too much for my Guilds.

 

[West R Lee]

As I stated previously, when it comes to Guild guitars ,and other longer term members would know this much better than I, Guilds seemed to be able to be purchased quite inexpensively. Prices have seem to have come up within the last couple of years. I purchased Dan’s (Longnose Gar) JF55-12 for $2199 including the shipping. He had it repaired and set up by his local shop. It cost him a fair amount which at the price he sold it to me for he did not recover. He, for his assorted reasons did not or could not bond to this guitar. I absolutely love playing this guitar. Its tweaked to perfection in regards to repair and set up. To me (in the current market) it’s worth every penny. There are those on this board that thought it was overpriced. I respect that. But my head is not steeped in the market of the not to distant past. In regards to my recent acquisition of my 2018 F40 traditional, some people might have thought I paid too much at $1300. But my market sense told me otherwise. If I wanted to be brief I could have said “cada loco con su teme!” Spanish for “to each their own”. Just an aside. In the past I have purchased very nice used Santa Cruz OM’s and a Vintage Southern for less than 2k. I’m aghast at the current prices. So I’m not unsympathetic to those that think I paid too much for my Guilds.

And there you have it Rich. The previous owner didn't care for a particular guitar, but you love it........ah, perception. Guilds are fabulous guitars and I've loved them all my adult life, but the high end boutique guitars cater to a different market, that's all. There truly are some great Guilds out there.

And on a side note Rich, I would NEVER judge your decision to buy a Guild, or any other guitar for that matter.

West

 

[JohnW63]

It's often said " Perception is reality " or probably better would be " My perception is my reality ". Since changing reality is not an easy thing to do, talking someone out of their perception has got to be just as hard. But, that's akin to saying my reality is more valid than your reality. That tactic is not going to work well. However, every time I see someone with lots of skill making Guitar Brand X sound so good, I start wondering how fluid my reality might be.

 

[Rayk]

This post kind reminds me of one I started on AGF about guitars loosing there wow factor .

Many guitars just seem like clone housing where each home is a clone of the one next to it tonally these guitars just seem Meh

Many of these guitars were high end models at least what I could I could find around the area . Hard to find many of the higher end brands here to compare though less a trip to Dream Guitars but they require a minimum limit of XX,XXX.XX amount with a credit card or check book balance to walk in the door and a intent to buy . Lol

Actually I don’t know what their requirements are but I feel I’m close in my statement. Lol

I’m not hooked on an era of a guitar or particular bracing as long as sounds good .

I think the guitars I have some cheap some affordable one off the charts for my level of skill lol are pretty good especially tonally not just build wise .

I’d rather fix these up then spend an unknown amount on guitars that are very expensive to me ( I’ll keep my personal thoughts on that to me ) .

I said it before but the Guilds have really hit home though I have other guitars like many here . The Guilds seem to stay close like electrons zipping around the nucleus.

Other guitars are more like celestial objects, orbiting an in an elliptical paths . I probably lost the concept of this conversation. Lol but I’m still on wake coffee . Lol

I wish Guild had more to offer me but I don’t think there really is less a D55 but I don’t play the dreads much . I so hope for OM’s again but ….

For some reason there’s one guitar that has my attention/interest it’s no longer made prices are through the roof and like always you could find one easy enough like the F30 F30R but now their like ghosts . Haha .

But even if I could buy one I have the glass is 7/8’s empty attitude where I’m now at the point of saying ok kid wow me ! As if my expectations of something impressing me are dirt low .

Ok I’m done . Have to go to work , ever see that ticktock vid or YouTube one of that Indian guy saying your job don’t give a Pf*k about you , here we go ! Lmao