Price and the perception of quality

[walrus]

It's often said " Perception is reality " or probably better would be " My perception is my reality ". Since changing reality is not an easy thing to do, talking someone out of their perception has got to be just as hard. But, that's akin to saying my reality is more valid than your reality. That tactic is not going to work well. However, every time I see someone with lots of skill making Guitar Brand X sound so good, I start wondering how fluid my reality might be.

Reminds me of having a friend over when I was in college, a great guitar player at that point already. I had an old Sears electric guitar I got when I was maybe 14 laying around. He picked it up and played the intro to "Suite: Judy Blue Eyes" perfectly. My reality was shaken a bit!

walrus

 

[Br1ck]

It is not self delusion to know one's biases. I'd much rather have a $6000 64 D 18 that a late model Authentic. The meet in the middle would be a D 18 GE. I don't know if "too good" is any kind of useful description, but that is what came to mind the first time I played a friend's Authentic. I like a more focused sound. I've never played a rear braced Authentic. That is probably the guitar for me.

I'm adverse to a brand new guitar too, and more so the more expensive a guitar is. I cringe when I hear these never leave the house. I think these biases are universal to one's overall nature. I have five mutts, all from the gutter or the pound. My house is a hundred years old, as is my furniture and many hand tools. I just like old stuff. As for guitars, there are more average old guitars than new. Modern production either in the factory or the workshop is better than ever, not so the materials.

That 64 D 18 was not so much better than my 70 D 35, it just had the classic Martin tone, so if that is what you want, the D 18 is a better value. All there is then is the inclination to buy which in this case was not there. Other than the reckoning when bringing it home, I can afford it. When I was working toward getting a Martin, I never once said this is just as good. And that has never been a closer judgement than it is now. But with Guild, you can still play both and decide your personal choice at an equal cost outlay.

 

[West R Lee]

It is not self delusion to know one's biases. I'd much rather have a $6000 64 D 18 that a late model Authentic. The meet in the middle would be a D 18 GE. I don't know if "too good" is any kind of useful description, but that is what came to mind the first time I played a friend's Authentic. I like a more focused sound. I've never played a rear braced Authentic. That is probably the guitar for me.

I'm adverse to a brand new guitar too, and more so the more expensive a guitar is. I cringe when I hear these never leave the house. I think these biases are universal to one's overall nature. I have five mutts, all from the gutter or the pound. My house is a hundred years old, as is my furniture and many hand tools. I just like old stuff. As for guitars, there are more average old guitars than new. Modern production either in the factory or the workshop is better than ever, not so the materials.

That 64 D 18 was not so much better than my 70 D 35, it just had the classic Martin tone, so if that is what you want, the D 18 is a better value. All there is then is the inclination to buy which in this case was not there. Other than the reckoning when bringing it home, I can afford it. When I was working toward getting a Martin, I never once said this is just as good. And that has never been a closer judgement than it is now. But with Guild, you can still play both and decide your personal choice at an equal cost outlay.

I have friends with Collings guitars Brick. The first I played knocked my socks off. I suppose if I had to describe why, I'd say that I'd never heard the articulation of individual notes like that guitar. And then I played others, some owned by friends and several in stores. There used to be a dealer in an old home in Wimberly. Tx, and if I'm not mistaken, at the time (Hill Country Guitars) was the largest Collings dealer in the country, but he didn't just have Collings guitars, he literally had hundreds of guitars from Martin, Santa Cruz, Froggy Bottom, Huss and Dalton, you name it, he had it. On top of that he had a couple of quiet rooms in which one could go play and really listen to a guitar. A former member here and I would go into that store and get lost in those quiet rooms for hours trying this one and that one. I came VERY close to walking out of there one day with a used Martin D28 Custom Adirondack, but the owner and I were off on price about $200, and I made a mistake........I should have left with it.

And that Martin experience left me with yet another life/guitar lesson. If you are truly moved by a guitar, then money (provided one can afford it) is really no object.

But those experiences left an indelible impression of Collings guitars on me that never left my soul. Expensive? Absolutely. Worth it? In my opinion, absolutely. So I bought a CJ (rosewood/German spruce), then a D2 (rosewood/Adirondack) and I was absolutely blown away, and not only by that articulation I discussed earlier, but by how light a touch was required to get tremendous response, and by the fit/finish and build quality. I play a whole lot of golf, so I'll use this analogy...........I'm on about the 16th hole of life. I've worked very hard to pay for a home, provide others with vehicles and put kids through college. I don't owe anyone in this world a dime monetarily, save utility bills and insurance. It might be a tad selfish on my part, but at some point I asked myself if I was going to really do anything for myself...........and I have.

After owning the CJ and the D2 for a few years, both of which I'd purchased used, I began to wonder that if they were that good (to me anyway). what if I ordered precisely what I wanted? My first NEW guitar since 1979. I honestly can not put into words what I felt when I first plucked the strings on my D1A........goosebumps, and it still gives me those chills almost every single time I pick it up. I can't see any possible way to ever regret buying this guitar, regardless of price. No other guitar has ever effected me in this way. I feel it in my spine and in my chest, the incredible vibration this thing put out, with deep deep bass, and crystal clear highs. These guitars entice me to try new things, finger style patterns, tunings and playing technique that no guitar has ever motived me to try before. I truly believe it's because of the incredible response I get out of them. Seemingly so little in to get so very much out.

And no, it doesn't leave the house, and none of my guitars leave the house these days as I've stopped playing out several years ago. So now, they are just for me, here at home, and for my lovely wife and friends to hear and enjoy........and some of those nights playing and singing have been truly priceless.

And that $24,000 Olson guitar I posted earlier in jest, no I'd never buy it personally, but I certainly understand how someone with the means and desire might...........and Lord how I'd love to play it.

West

 

[hearth_man]

'78 D25M This one sounded fabulous from the 1st chord to the last when I packed it away.

This is same model, year and color of the first Guild I played. It was my brother's that he bought new at the time. It blew me away with it's huge sound! I had never heard an acoustic sound like that. I've only owned Guilds since then. He still has it and I had a chance to play again after about 35 years since I had it in my hands. It was just like the first time...

 

[chazmo]

. . .

And that $24,000 Olson guitar I posted earlier in jest, no I'd never buy it personally, but I certainly understand how someone with the means and desire might...........and Lord how I'd love to play it.

West

Jim, I thought you'd gone off the deep end, my friend! Glad you weren't serious. I might've had to call for an intervention.

 

[West R Lee]

Jim, I thought you'd gone off the deep end, my friend! Glad you weren't serious. I might've had to call for an intervention.

Not yet Charlie, but I'm teetering......right there on the precipice!

West

 

[Rayk]

I have friends with Collings guitars Brick. The first I played knocked my socks off. I suppose if I had to describe why, I'd say that I'd never heard the articulation of individual notes like that guitar. And then I played others, some owned by friends and several in stores. There used to be a dealer in an old home in Wimberly. Tx, and if I'm not mistaken, at the time (Hill Country Guitars) was the largest Collings dealer in the country, but he didn't just have Collings guitars, he literally had hundreds of guitars from Martin, Santa Cruz, Froggy Bottom, Huss and Dalton, you name it, he had it. On top of that he had a couple of quiet rooms in which one could go play and really listen to a guitar. A former member here and I would go into that store and get lost in those quiet rooms for hours trying this one and that one. I came VERY close to walking out of there one day with a used Martin D28 Custom Adirondack, but the owner and I were off on price about $200, and I made a mistake........I should have left with it.

And that Martin experience left me with yet another life/guitar lesson. If you are truly moved by a guitar, then money (provided one can afford it) is really no object.

But those experiences left an indelible impression of Collings guitars on me that never left my soul. Expensive? Absolutely. Worth it? In my opinion, absolutely. So I bought a CJ (rosewood/German spruce), then a D2 (rosewood/Adirondack) and I was absolutely blown away, and not only by that articulation I discussed earlier, but by how light a touch was required to get tremendous response, and by the fit/finish and build quality. I play a whole lot of golf, so I'll use this analogy...........I'm on about the 16th hole of life. I've worked very hard to pay for a home, provide others with vehicles and put kids through college. I don't owe anyone in this world a dime monetarily, save utility bills and insurance. It might be a tad selfish on my part, but at some point I asked myself if I was going to really do anything for myself...........and I have.

After owning the CJ and the D2 for a few years, both of which I'd purchased used, I began to wonder that if they were that good (to me anyway). what if I ordered precisely what I wanted? My first NEW guitar since 1979. I honestly can not put into words what I felt when I first plucked the strings on my D1A........goosebumps, and it still gives me those chills almost every single time I pick it up. I can't see any possible way to ever regret buying this guitar, regardless of price. No other guitar has ever effected me in this way. I feel it in my spine and in my chest, the incredible vibration this thing put out, with deep deep bass, and crystal clear highs. These guitars entice me to try new things, finger style patterns, tunings and playing technique that no guitar has ever motived me to try before. I truly believe it's because of the incredible response I get out of them. Seemingly so little in to get so very much out.

And no, it doesn't leave the house, and none of my guitars leave the house these days as I've stopped playing out several years ago. So now, they are just for me, here at home, and for my lovely wife and friends to hear and enjoy........and some of those nights playing and singing have been truly priceless.

And that $24,000 Olson guitar I posted earlier in jest, no I'd never buy it personally, but I certainly understand how someone with the means and desire might...........and Lord how I'd love to play it.

West

Now that is a Wow ! Factor . There’s no shop one can walk into around me that has those guitars out to try that I know of .

SamAsh had a Santa Cruz some years ago used . I researched the model online as I didn’t see the guitar yet it was down in Charolette about a hour drive . I called put it on hold drove down and the guitar was gone . Sight unseen I was ready to come with it but they sold it . Can’t say if I would have liked it but the price was right apparently to right . Lol oh well .

So many guitars out there I’d like to try but will never see . lol

 

[West R Lee]

Now that is a Wow ! Factor . There’s no shop one can walk into around me that has those guitars out to try that I know of .

SamAsh had a Santa Cruz some years ago used . I researched the model online as I didn’t see the guitar yet it was down in Charolette about a hour drive . I called put it on hold drove down and the guitar was gone . Sight unseen I was ready to come with it but they sold it . Can’t say if I would have liked it but the price was right apparently to right . Lol oh well .

So many guitars out there I’d like to try but will never see . lol

Oh, it was the coolest shop Ray. Back then it was in Wimberly, Tx., a small but awesome Hill Country town, full of small shops and restaurants with the beautiful Blanco River running right down the middle of town. A man named Dwain owned the place and Dwain was the only shop employee. And that guy ran his business quite a bit differently than any other guitar shop I'd ever been in. I've never felt more comfortable in a guitar shop, before or since.

He night have a Santa Cruz or a Froggy Bottom, or maybe a 30's Martin on the wall, and he wanted you to play them, to play them all if you could. He'd introduce you to a guitar, or you'd find it on the wall, and from that point, Dwain would leave you alone unless you had a question for him. It was far and away the coolest shop I've ever been in. I have no idea how he kept so many incredible guitars in stock, and the majority of the used guitars in immaculate condition. And back then, Dwain would deal with you. I couldn't go down there without going to Dwain's shop.

With Wimberly being so small, eventually he moved the shop to Austin, where I suspect overhead and competition proved too much to overcome. At some point in there, Dwain moved his shop to Drippings Springs for a while, but I was never fortunate enough to visit that shop. Hill Country Guitars went out of business several years ago.

West

 

[dreadnut]

"Louise" is 47 years young now. Still my main gigging guitar.

 

[Neal]

Best guitar I ever played was at Retrofret in Brooklyn, a 1993 Collings D-3 with Brazilian back and sides. It was superb. And $7,000 about ten years ago. No way I was going to shell that out with a daughter at NYU.

If I had the opportunity again, now that my kids are grown, I’d try to make it mine.

 

[chazmo]

Best guitar I ever played was at Retrofret in Brooklyn, a 1993 Collings D-3 with Brazilian back and sides. It was superb. And $7,000 about ten years ago. No way I was going to shell that out with a daughter at NYU.

If I had the opportunity again, now that my kids are grown, I’d try to make it mine.

Sounds great, Neal. But what fun is buying a guitar in perfect condition?!?!

 

[West R Lee]

Sounds great, Neal. But what fun is buying a guitar in perfect condition?!?!

Oh believe me Charlie, it can be a blast.

West

 

[Westerly Wood]

Best guitar I ever played was at Retrofret in Brooklyn, a 1993 Collings D-3 with Brazilian back and sides. It was superb. And $7,000 about ten years ago. No way I was going to shell that out with a daughter at NYU.

If I had the opportunity again, now that my kids are grown, I’d try to make it mine.

I recently realized the BR is pretty much my Guild acoustic for the next 15 years. I am an older Dad and the funds got to go to them for a long season yet. But hey, when I am 72, I will be in the market for another Guild dread so look out!

Knowing me, probably finally get a D25 arched...

 

[plaidseason]

There's a lot to chew on. I'd argue that a Santa Cruz or a Collings are more likely to be amazing right out the door than say most new factory guitars. But years in, a bunch of those factory guitars are going to really rise to the occasion. I still remember a SCGC OM I played in Danbury, Connecticut in the late 1990s. I went back and played it a few times. It was magic . . . but also above my budget.

I played an $1100 mid 70s Westerly F30 a few years back that I remember just as fondly. 45 years of drying out, strumming and settling in definitely help.

That Guild Nashville Custom Shop F30r-ls I owned was on a Santa Cruz level - and even at new, full price, it was (I think) 2/3 the cost of a similar SCGC OMPW.

The story around my F44 is that I found it in local shop for $500 . . . while I was on an endless search for an M20. That was the late 90s and didn't know a thing about that model. I called Fender and then I called George Gruhn himself. "George, is it worth $500?"
"I'd give you a $1000 for it right now." I left work early and bought it.

It's the $500 guitar that I'll never sell.

 

[Br1ck]

It is one of the facts of this guitar obsession that one guy can love a guitar, and another not, for a whole host of reasons. I can like a bunch of guitars and not want to buy one. I have a friend who buys four to six guitars each year, and sells five or six. I've seen him move from having several Collings to having none. He has Authentics, 70s Martins, Guild 12 strings, and used to swear by Collings.

So there are guitars I don't care for, and Collings are one. I like the classic Martin tone better. And the trying to go toward the Collings brighter tone Modern Deluxes? Nope. What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. I have played some thirty year old Collings guitars I liked a lot, and a lot of Martins I didn't.

I've never walked out on a guitar that I thought was $200 over priced, and plenty of fine guitars I thought were $2000 over priced. There was a 64 D 18 just last week. That was the reason for this thread. When I got home and played my 70 D 35, it was pretty darned good, and my 90 000 16, now owned by a friend, is in that very satisfying modest guitar category. I've played many 000 18s that could not compare.

And the guitar I liked the most, taken in context of what it was, was a 63 LG 0, plastic bridge and all. Go figure. Liked it better than the 47 00 17. Value on that one was age. The vintage premium is becoming excessive and does in most cases not reflect the guitar as instrument. If you stumble upon a Guild that sounds good to you and is affordable, buy the thing, play it for what it is, not what it is not, and try to be happy. It can be done.

 

[West R Lee]

It is one of the facts of this guitar obsession that one guy can love a guitar, and another not, for a whole host of reasons. I can like a bunch of guitars and not want to buy one. I have a friend who buys four to six guitars each year, and sells five or six. I've seen him move from having several Collings to having none. He has Authentics, 70s Martins, Guild 12 strings, and used to swear by Collings.

So there are guitars I don't care for, and Collings are one. I like the classic Martin tone better. And the trying to go toward the Collings brighter tone Modern Deluxes? Nope. What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. I have played some thirty year old Collings guitars I liked a lot, and a lot of Martins I didn't.

I've never walked out on a guitar that I thought was $200 over priced, and plenty of fine guitars I thought were $2000 over priced. There was a 64 D 18 just last week. That was the reason for this thread. When I got home and played my 70 D 35, it was pretty darned good, and my 90 000 16, now owned by a friend, is in that very satisfying modest guitar category. I've played many 000 18s that could not compare.

And the guitar I liked the most, taken in context of what it was, was a 63 LG 0, plastic bridge and all. Go figure. Liked it better than the 47 00 17. Value on that one was age. The vintage premium is becoming excessive and does in most cases not reflect the guitar as instrument. If you stumble upon a Guild that sounds good to you and is affordable, buy the thing, play it for what it is, not what it is not, and try to be happy. It can be done.

I'll buy that (figuratively speaking). I guess I like examples of them all, with maybe one exception. Though I have friends who love them, and a good one that was once a member here, I've never cared for Taylor guitars. It's something about the sound that I get when I play one. I've heard others that make them sound great, just not me. There's just kind of a twang sound I hear in Taylor guitars, or at least in most of them. And I hope not to step on any Taylor owner's toes, they're just not for me.

And Brick, on the $200 thing, well you'd have just had to have been there. We were driving home after I'd spent a bit more than an hour with that Custom D28, I couldn't get it out of my mind as we were heading north for the 300 or so mile drive home. I told my wife I'd been considering it and she said to go for it. I hung an east and drove the 45 minutes or so back to Wimberly after having transferred cash over the phone. I told my wife that $2000 was my limit on that guitar. We arrived at Hill Country Guitars and were invited in by Dwain, the owner and I told him I wanted to sit down with the Martin. It had one small ding on the top, but it really sounded incredible and played like butter. We were ready to get back on the road as I told Dwain my max was $2000. Dwain went back, got on his computer and told me $2200 was the very best he could do. I thanked him for his time and his openness with his shop and we hit the road.

Looking back, it was a mistake, but 10 years ago guitars didn't cost what they cost now. So it was a self discipline thing. If I set a price limit, there is no budging me, with just about anything. On the way home, we stopped by a home and garden center and Mrs. West bought a large flower pot made in the shape of a pig, and she named him "Martin" in honor of that guitar, I still see ol' Martin each and every day, as he sits outside my study, and I am reminded of that guitar. But again, just like our decisions to buy a particular guitar, we only have to justify those decisions to ourselves.

West

 

[Guildedagain]

Knowing me, probably finally get a D25 arched...

I'd have another D25 as well, the flatback natural top version.

 

[Neal]

I'll buy that (figuratively speaking). I guess I like examples of them all, with maybe one exception. Though I have friends who love them, and a good one that was once a member here, I've never cared for Taylor guitars. It's something about the sound that I get when I play one. I've heard others that make them sound great, just not me. There's just kind of a twang sound I hear in Taylor guitars, or at least in most of them. And I hope not to step on any Taylor owner's toes, they're just not for me.

And Brick, on the $200 thing, well you'd have just had to have been there. We were driving home after I'd spent a bit more than an hour with that Custom D28, I couldn't get it out of my mind as we were heading north for the 300 or so mile drive home. I told my wife I'd been considering it and she said to go for it. I hung an east and drove the 45 minutes or so back to Wimberly after having transferred cash over the phone. I told my wife that $2000 was my limit on that guitar. We arrived at Hill Country Guitars and were invited in by Dwain, the owner and I told him I wanted to sit down with the Martin. It had one small ding on the top, but it really sounded incredible and played like butter. We were ready to get back on the road as I told Dwain my max was $2000. Dwain went back, got on his computer and told me $2200 was the very best he could do. I thanked him for his time and his openness with his shop and we hit the road.

Looking back, it was a mistake, but 10 years ago guitars didn't cost what they cost now. So it was a self discipline thing. If I set a price limit, there is no budging me, with just about anything. On the way home, we stopped by a home and garden center and Mrs. West bought a large flower made in the shape of a pig, and she named him "Martin" in honor of that guitar, I still see ol' Martin each and every day, as he sits outside my study, and I am reminded of that guitar. But again, just like our decisions to buy a particular guitar, we only have to justify those decisions to ourselves.

West

If I didn’t set a limit, I could find myself in big trouble, fast. And that goes for a lot of things!

 

[West R Lee]

If I didn’t set a limit, I could find myself in big trouble, fast. And that goes for a lot of things!

Oh absolutely Neal. If we fudge a few hundred here, and a couple of hundred there.........well that's how folks find themselves in financial trouble. And to me, credit cards are the absolute devil. Oh, I use them from time to time, but only to secure a hotel room or buy online.....but there is always a plan to pay before the expenditure is made. Gosh at the times I've preached this to my sons.

West

 

[Rayk]

I'll buy that (figuratively speaking). I guess I like examples of them all, with maybe one exception. Though I have friends who love them, and a good one that was once a member here, I've never cared for Taylor guitars. It's something about the sound that I get when I play one. I've heard others that make them sound great, just not me. There's just kind of a twang sound I hear in Taylor guitars, or at least in most of them. And I hope not to step on any Taylor owner's toes, they're just not for me.

And Brick, on the $200 thing, well you'd have just had to have been there. We were driving home after I'd spent a bit more than an hour with that Custom D28, I couldn't get it out of my mind as we were heading north for the 300 or so mile drive home. I told my wife I'd been considering it and she said to go for it. I hung an east and drove the 45 minutes or so back to Wimberly after having transferred cash over the phone. I told my wife that $2000 was my limit on that guitar. We arrived at Hill Country Guitars and were invited in by Dwain, the owner and I told him I wanted to sit down with the Martin. It had one small ding on the top, but it really sounded incredible and played like butter. We were ready to get back on the road as I told Dwain my max was $2000. Dwain went back, got on his computer and told me $2200 was the very best he could do. I thanked him for his time and his openness with his shop and we hit the road.

Looking back, it was a mistake, but 10 years ago guitars didn't cost what they cost now. So it was a self discipline thing. If I set a price limit, there is no budging me, with just about anything. On the way home, we stopped by a home and garden center and Mrs. West bought a large flower made in the shape of a pig, and she named him "Martin" in honor of that guitar, I still see ol' Martin each and every day, as he sits outside my study, and I am reminded of that guitar. But again, just like our decisions to buy a particular guitar, we only have to justify those decisions to ourselves.

West

Same here with the Taylor’s all the way up to their top shelf models . I will say I’ve heard a fair number on recordings and they record well .
Though there was one a OM or Grand OM 12 fret burst I played that was a “Wow” guitar if I had 4,000 bucks I would have bought it .
Nothing since that a day so I guess it was a true gem amongst the grain of sands along the beach . Lol