Seeking Wisdom On Choosing an Older Guild 12-String

[Matthro]

Friends at 'Let's Talk Guild',
This is my first attempt at posting here, so please forgive me if I incoherently ramble. I have an itch to scratch for an older Guild 12 string. I have never owned a Guild. I want to take the time to learn from knowledgeable folks here for what to look for, what is 'special' or desirable about certain years or models. I have been doing a lot of reading here, at online articles and for-sale postings on Reverb and other sites to learn about what some say makes certain older Guild 12-strings special. I am not much of a player, but would like to get a memorable guitar to play myself and ultimately hand down to my son, a much better player. Reading and learning about woods, luthiers, models, but I appreciate word of mouth input from experienced folks to help sift the important from the not-so-important. I am interested in any model from F-212 to F-612 that I could manage ($). Been reading about Hoboken, NJ as better than Westerly, CT, but both being excellent eras of manufacture, but I hope to learn from anyone willing to lend some of your well earned wisdom. Doesn't have to be a pristine guitar, just well repaired or repairable to original sound and that will play the beautiful Guild sound and last reasonably well. I like the idea of a 'Jumbo' but read recently that, for instance, an F-212 from the 60's, 70's was a better instrument than an F-212XL due to it's manufacturing people and process, so, more to navigate through. A major drawback for me will be not being able to play a guitar for sale a thousand miles away and so many are sold 'as is'. So, if anyone would want to make me less ignorant on any of these Guitar buying aspects, I am certainly listening. Thank You Very Much. Matthro

 

[Guildedagain]

It's good to hear my F112 is safe.

After buying it, the next logical step was a F212 but the F112 ate its lunch so bad the only next logical step was to return it.

 

[Matthro]

Just an omission in my typing !

 

[chazmo]

Hi Matthro. Welcome to LTG!

You've heard many confusing things about Guild production, most of which are false. With Guild it almost doesn't matter when or where your guitar was built. A Guild 12-string is one of the finest instruments out there. It's just that simple.

The bottom line is that you need to draw your own opinions about the sound and the playability factors that affect you. Not everyone likes all models, and there are many that you did not mention in your post.

It certainly is harder to trade around and experiment when you're remote. Your best bet is to ask specifically about individual guitars or models as they come up for discussion. We're always happy to discuss one with you if you come across something and you want to hear about it.

Good luck with the hunt.

 

[Rich Cohen]

Twelve strings, as you may know, are usually under more string tension that six stringers. The old they are, depending on how they have been treated, the more likely they may need some TLC. TLC is not impossible and can be done if the luthier knows what she/he is doing. If you are a dedicated tweleve string guitarist, then you need to be committed to such interventions.

 

[fronobulax]

Welcome. You have been told some things about Guild that are somewhere between false and an opinion that is not widely held
I can give you a couple of questions that might help narrow things for you or let you know what you'd like to learn.

Budget? You can drop a F-612 off your list unless you are prepared to drop at least $5000. Similarly if $500 is more in your range you might be looking at instruments not made in the USA or ones that need some work.

Tone wood preferences?

Body size? - small, medium or large will get you started.

Do you have a good luthier who you trust to do work or are you prepared to limit your search to instruments that are about ten years old or younger?

 

[HeyMikey]

Welcome Matthro! I think that you can find excellent Guild 12s from any time period and factory, including current makes. I would first narrow down what size you want and then look for one that doesn’t need any serious work. As Rich said 12-strings are a little more prone to needing neck work because of the added string tension. Make sure the action is good and it has enough saddle for adjustment.

About size… I had an excellent Westerly F112 mahogany that was super comfortable and was great for finger style but lacked the bass end I was looking for when strumming. The F212 mahogany and rarer F312 rosewood are good all around intermediate sizes. I was lucky after searching for quite some time to land an F312, but otherwise likely would have been very happy with an F212. The top of the line F512 rosewood and F412 maple are world renowned for their full quintessential 12-string sound. However for someone with shoulder issues (like me) it may not be comfortable. Forget about an F612. If one ever does come to market it will be $10k or more in good condition. There was also a G212 and G312 dreadnaught style out there, but overall I think the F body shape is traditionally what folks look for in a 12.

 

[Matthro]

I appreciate the welcome and the welcoming information and I appreciate each of you and your input. I am reading each one with interest, and appreciate that I am seeing names that I have recognize from other posts/threads. (By the way, in the photo, is the F112 the upper left guitar?) And, to answer fronobulax, in my minds eye, older, USA made, and, within reason, I am open to the investment it would take to buy once and enjoy a long time, ultimately to my son, but I will look for where cost and satisfaction are optimized. Doesn't have to be stratospheric. Started thinking it must have to be an F-512 and now see lots of great remarks here and elsewhere about the F-112 and F-212. Thank You All.

 

[Guildedagain]

I started out thinking I had to have a Ferrari, but then settled for a Yugo, such is life.

Yes, the F112 is the upper one, very plain jane, but that one is also quite special, and I super bonded with it a few times - many times - during the early phase of our relationship. The 212 just sounded bad, some guitars do. I really did return it immediately.

Always buy the most guitar you can within your budget.

The F112 is the baby of the bunch, also the lightest and most compact, and that works well for me.

If you're very tall or just have arms like an Orangutan, the bigger bodied models will fit you better.

I've always like near travel sized guitars, as well as the absence of frills, beauty in simplicity and function, like Stickley chairs and Arts and Crafts furniture in general.

That doesn't mean I can't appreciate ornate things, but generally being a poor working man, my guitar budget is still generally well under a thousand dollars, as well as my playing doesn't warrant spending too much on guitars, in fact the guitars I regret the most are always the ones I've paid the most for, maybe high price leads to unrealistic expectations.

That being said, I'm actually quite a fan of Rosewood, and I secretly lust for an F312.

Someone will come along who knows all the body size difference between these guitars, they do get progressively bigger and bigger and something else to note, a whole lotta love for the 212XL, from memory, on these pages.

I'd recommend searching old posts here, as well as the search function allows, there should be a lot to read.

Doing the same in Google might bring up old threads here, as well as other acoustic forums.

You're already ahead of the curve having your heart set on a Guild 12 string, the brand is known for it's legenday 12 string guitars as much as anything else they've produced over the years, some very fine Jazz guitars, their acoustic guitars in general.

Someone mentioned the D25-12 as their favorite the other day, and the guitar that made me join the forum back in 2016, such a long time ago... was a D4-12, another spectacular budget model.

I'm somewhat of a chauvinistic purist, so I won't bother to discuss non USA models, but they are out there and they look great, but so far off my radar I don't even know if there are 12 string models.

My D4-12, sold it local to the same person along with my '72 Martin D28, freed up some money to buy more Guilds.

 

[Matthro]

Thanks very much. That is a beautiful Dreadnaught guitar. I appreciate your descriptions, preferences, thoughts and why they are what they are. I am appreciating yours and everyone else's input and looking forward to anything folks are willing to offer. By the way, what years were the F-112 and F-212 you pictured earlier produced? Also, do you notice that some worthwhile 12 strings show up for sale on the 'Let's Talk Guild' site, if I will just have patience? Thank You.

 

[GAD]

Moving to Acoustics

 

[Matthro]

Thank You to the gentleman from the Garden State.

 

[Cougar]

Welcome to LTG! I joined LTG about 8 years ago. I'd heard that Guilds were the best 12-strings, and I wanted a burst F512 with an abalone rosette. Of course, at $3,000+ (then), they were well beyond my budget, even used ones. Back then TX here at LTG posted that there was a good deal on a Corona-built (2002) burst jumbo JF30-12 for sale on craigslist down in Dana Point, CA. That was 700 miles away from where I was living at the time, BUT I was scheduled to visit family in SoCal in a week or two. Anyway, I went and looked at this guitar for about two minutes and handed over the cash. The JF30-12 is pretty close to a jumbo maple F412, but "without all the bling." I still absolutely love this guitar, and never skip a chance to show it off, lol.

I pretty much lucked out with my two-minute assessment. I looked down the neck, looked at the saddle, that was about it. I've since learned there are more things to check, and there are good threads around here somewhere listing what to look for, or when buying online, what to ask about, so you don't buy a guitar then find out it needs $1,000 worth of work (neck reset, new frets, etc.).

Like you, my first question was, what's the best year/factory for Guild 12-strings? The answer was invariably "They are ALL good. There are no bad years." Personally, I prefer the not-so-old Guilds because I don't want to have to spend more money to have them worked on, even though a pro setup (<$100) is usually a good idea regardless of newness. So Guilds out of New Hartford or Oxnard all fit that bill and are fabulous guitars. Yeah, some guys swear by the tone of older Guilds (and Hoboken is super old), but I'm thinking these guys are audio connoisseurs, and their hearing must be much better than mine, because my JF30-12 and (more recently acquired F512) have spectacular sound.

There's a lot to learn! Take your time! The hunt is half the fun!

 

[Matthro]

Thank You very much. Beautiful guitar and I appreciate the story of how you came to it. Must sound terrific anywhere but also something unique when in the great outdoors of Idaho, too. I appreciate your taking the time to help me out. Quite a list of guitars there ! I am getting jealous of these guitar photos that folks are sharing, but I am hoping to stay patient and be a happy buyer of something I can appreciate for a long time. Take Care and I appreciate anything further you or anyone has to offer.

 

[Guildedagain]

Thanks very much. That is a beautiful Dreadnaught guitar. I appreciate your descriptions, preferences, thoughts and why they are what they are. I am appreciating yours and everyone else's input and looking forward to anything folks are willing to offer. By the way, what years were the F-112 and F-212 you pictured earlier produced? Also, do you notice that some worthwhile 12 strings show up for sale on the 'Let's Talk Guild' site, if I will just have patience? Thank You.

So, the F112 is a 1968 that was verified by our own Guild guru Hans Moust from Nederland as having being built in Hoboken, my Hoboken token. It is serial # OA-113 from a series that started at OA-101, so numerically the 13th F112 to roll of the production line, quite possibly built to build the reputation of the instruments. Has rather unusual top grain, wide on the outsides, possibly a desirable feature, possibly enhancing the bass.

It was well played by someone, more top wood missing that any other acoustic I've ever had.

The F212 was a 1971.

The D4-12 a 1996. 90's Westerly Guilds are great guitars, very solidly built, a little heavier than the older models.

 

[Brad Little]

I have both a vintage F212 (Hoboken, '64) and a recent F512 (2010 New Hartford). They are both excellent guitars. Many of my friends prefer the sound of the 212 over the 512, how much of that is mahogany vs. rosewood, size difference or the almost 60 years of aging on the 212 is hard to judge. I, too, often prefer the 212 over the 512, but a lot depends on the music I'm playing, Also, the 212 and I have spent nearly 60 years together, so that may color my thinking, too. Oh, I don't think anyone mentioned the F212XL, basically a 212 with a larger body, along the lines of the 512.As somebody else pointed out, even though they've made other body shape 12 strings, it's the F model shape that is the quintessential Guild 12.

 

[Westerly Wood]

The Westerly RI years were pretty much all good. Most older 12s you seek will have been built there. That plant was in operation for 30+ years, and rarely did I read of a disappointment.

 

[Br1ck]

If there ever was a sure guitar bet, it would be a Guild 12 string. My favorite being the F 112 for it's clarity. Any of the larger F body guitars would be the ticket for strumming. This wold be my exception for generally liking pre 73 Guilds, because if you ever wanted a heavier build it would be on a 12 string. But I've never played a Guild 12 string that I didn't want.

 

[Matthro]

Thanks today to each of you, Guildedagain, Brad Little, Westerly Wood, Br1ck. I appreciate your 'been there' experience and encouragement. I am looking forward to the day I can enjoy what you each have been enjoying for years. Thank You. Add anything you think helpful.

 

[JohnW63]

Just my guitar shopping thoughts.

The years where the F512 and F412 were not called those models would probably have a lower price tag than when they were called what most people have heard of. Same guitars, as far as I know, but not with the marque model name.

12 string guitars have a fairly wide range of tones. Some people like a brighter sounds or a more " jangly " sound and others my prefer a deeper more balanced sound. Then there are the three main woods. Rosewood, Mahogany, and Maple. Each one can produce different tones, but... even that is not written in stone! So, don't discount one model if you have read that it sounds <insert reviewers' opinion here>. The nice thing about the internet is you can get a listen that may change your mind. This assumes the recording was done well, the player played well, and your listening with good speakers or headphones.

So, my suggestion would be to try and find as many video clips of any Guild 12 string and take notes. You may find your target models may shift.