Double pickguard Guilds?

[E-Type]

I'm waiting for a three-pickguard model myself.

I was thinking Harmony did a 3pg model, but this is the one I was thinking of, still only two. Still, it's a lot of pickguard!!!

 

[amnicon]

Two pickguards has always been a Guild thing to me, and to me is a neat brand-specific marker.
I've always liked it, but will admit to being biased having learned of Guild from John Denver and Richie Havens.

 

[Westerly Wood]

I was thinking Harmony did a 3pg model, but this is the one I was thinking of, still only two.

could they have created an uglier version perhaps?

lol

 

[fronobulax]

could they have created an uglier version perhaps?

lol

Wounded Butterfly.

Maybe that belongs in the band name thread?

 

[Westerly Wood]

Wounded Butterfly.

Maybe that belongs in the band name thread?

great band name!

 

[Rambozo96]

One thing I remember is apparently back then you could order a D-25 with Schaller tuners what would’ve come on a D-50/55 from the factory so I guess maybe there was some way for the dealers to specify this on the order sheet like in the case of a dual pickguard.

 

[Rambozo96]

Wounded Butterfly.

Maybe that belongs in the band name thread?

The strange thing with Harmony is their idea of a top of the line flat top was putting a bunch of plastic on it to make it look fancier than it really is. I don’t believe those upper end Sovereigns used rosewood back and sides/ebony fretboard or anything that would be more in line with being premium features. On the electrics they slap on a vibrato bridge and a 3rd pickup. I have however heard of some of their archtops being carved from solid wood though extremely rare.

 

[kostask]

The "bunch of plastic" was more to appeal aesthetically to those who wanted the bling. There were 3 of the "big" Sovereigns, the ones with the "bunch of plastic were the H1264 and H1265. There was however, the H1260, which just had a normally sized single pick guard, and a natural finish. And it was a great sounding guitar, if somewhat different from most "normal" dreads in that the shape was noticeably different, and that it was ladder braced, and by extension, the sound seemed to be sharper and had less sustain than the equivalent X braced guitars. Think more of a blues box, and less of a country/folk guitar.

The Sovereign H126X series (all of them) had mahogany back and sides. Solid mahogany, so solid that the back was one piece of mahogany, not book matched, but the bridges and fingerboards were Brazilian rosewood. They all came with the obligatory hot hide glue runs all over the interior in amounts going from "a lot" to "did they mean to coat the interior with hide glue?". Note that, it was hide glue, they did use a dovetail neck joint, nitro lacquer, and had a (to me, questionable) working truss rod. That is a lot of what are now considered very high end features, on what was at the time of thier introduction, a mid range guitar (at least in price). Very hard to argue about the material quality. The only real point of criticism that anybody could direct at the Harmony H126X line was the use of through/pinless bridges, which is a little nit-picky.

P.S. The guitar in Frono's post (#24) is a H1265, and the one below from E-type is a H1264. I had an H1260, and it was my favourite guitar prior to getting my DV-52. They were both lost when my guitars were stolen.

P.P.S. I know it is common knowledge, but the H1260 was the acoustic guitar in the studio version of "Stairway to Heaven".

 

[E-Type]

As over the top as it is, I'd still love to have one of these.

 

[F-412Spec]

Tim Buckley's F-312. Hoboken, 1960s.

 

[kostask]

As over the top as it is, I'd still love to have one of these.

While people are complaining about the surface area covered by the pickguard on the Harmony H1264/H1265, and they are significant, especially on this H1264, you may also want to thing about the thickness of the plastic used on these guitars. My old Harmony H1265 had a 4 layer pick guard, tortoise shell plastic, then whilte, then black, and another white again, making four layers of plastc. The plastic on the upper bout of the H1265 isn't of much consequence as it is in an acoustically dead location (i.e. has no impact on sound). The above black H1254 has at least two layers of plastic that I can see, and the lower ends of the double pickguards exstend almost to the bridge, most definitely acoustically active.

My one time H1260 had a single, fairly thin, single layer of tortoise shell plastic, and it was a fairly small pickguard.

 

[adorshki]

On my 1974, the finish is on top of the pickguards, so they were definitely added before it left the factory.

Yes, "At that time".
My '96 D25 'guard is finished over, but in the mid '90's they began using some finish options that forced 'em to glue the 'guard over the finish.

 

[adorshki]

could they have created an uglier version perhaps?

lol

Marketing did but they couldn't get the engineers onboard.

 

[West R Lee]

I don't think it much matters what I think personally about the looks of double pickguards. My question is not one of aesthetics, but of performance. I'm not saying two pickguards dampen top vibration. And obviously, if two guards do dampen vibration, then I'd think one certainly would to an extent. Anyway, the builders go to all the trouble to "tune" a top, some going to great lengths to do so, so I've always wondered about the wisdom of 2 pickguards, unless of course the sonic difference between having no pickguard, one or two is negligible? I would THINK pickguards do indeed effect vibration to at least some extent.

Or how about a leather top?



To listen to luthiers discuss just how thin their tops are cut, then to hear them talk about hand planing to achieve a desired response. Then to take plastic and glue it to the top covering the wood? It just seems like it would dampen it to me. But obviously, I'm no luthier.

West

 

[kostask]

Factory made guitars are NOT tuned by luthiers, at least in volume production facilities, and luthiers do not build the guitars. They are assembed by good, conscientious assembly workers, and they do a great job, but in the end, they follow the design. As in the top is planed/surface saed to a pre-determined thickness, the braces are cut to a particular size, and glued to a particular pattern. In the vast majority of cases, the guitars are not tuned or adjusted for a particular sound. The exception is some of the very high end models, or custom shop models, and that varies by brand. Factory built guitars will almost always have a pickguard.

Hand builders do tune a guitar top, in fact, they tune it a number of times. The top tuning starts with the bare spruce tops, and the thickness is adjusted to a particular tone. Then they put the braces on, and shave and shape braces until the get their desired tone. Then the tops are joined to the sides/back, and tuned again. Finally, the guitar has the finish applied, and a final top tuning is done. again Then the guitar is strung up, setup, and strings are put on, and the final tone is assessed. Most hand builders don't put pick guards on, and depending on the builder, may not offer one.

The factory guitars do not optimize the sound of the guitar to take individual wood characteristics into account, such as one flitch or batch of spruce being stiffer or less stiffer than the previous batch. Same goes for brace wood, or for the sound properties of the back sides. Hand builders do, its why the percentage of "really good to great" guitars coming out of a good hand builders shop is far higher than that of any factory, no matter how good the factory is.

 

[West R Lee]

Factory made guitars are NOT tuned by luthiers, at least in volume production facilities, and luthiers do not build the guitars. They are assembed by good, conscientious assembly workers, and they do a great job, but in the end, they follow the design. As in the top is planed/surface saed to a pre-determined thickness, the braces are cut to a particular size, and glued to a particular pattern. In the vast majority of cases, the guitars are not tuned or adjusted for a particular sound. The exception is some of the very high end models, or custom shop models, and that varies by brand. Factory built guitars will almost always have a pickguard.

Hand builders do tune a guitar top, in fact, they tune it a number of times. The top tuning starts with the bare spruce tops, and the thickness is adjusted to a particular tone. Then they put the braces on, and shave and shape braces until the get their desired tone. Then the tops are joined to the sides/back, and tuned again. Finally, the guitar has the finish applied, and a final top tuning is done. again Then the guitar is strung up, setup, and strings are put on, and the final tone is assessed. Most hand builders don't put pick guards on, and depending on the builder, may not offer one.

The factory guitars do not optimize the sound of the guitar to take individual wood characteristics into account, such as one flitch or batch of spruce being stiffer or less stiffer than the previous batch. Same goes for brace wood, or for the sound properties of the back sides. Hand builders do, its why the percentage of "really good to great" guitars coming out of a good hand builders shop is far higher than that of any factory, no matter how good the factory is.

You are correct. I was not referring to mass produced guitars. Having said that, I have learned that even with hand tuning a top on "boutique" guitars, the builder is more simply looking for response, rather than a particular tone. So back to my previous post, I do not know, but it would seem that once a top is "tuned" to achieve a desired response, that response might be muffled by the presence of a pickguard to some small degree. I don't know that, simply speculating.

In interviews, I've listened to Bruce Van Wart, Richard Hoover and Dana Bourgeois discuss graduating the outer edges of their guitar tops by hand. I'd also swear, but am not 100% sure that I've heard Ren Ferguson discuss it as well, or a similar process, but I sure could be wrong about that. What they are doing is simply thinning the top at the outer edges after planing and sanding to get more "response" or "excitability", whatever you wish to call it, out of that top. To me, in my laymen's terms, that simply mean to enable that top to achieve more vibration. From there it would seem that to glue a piece of plastic to that then "tuned" top might inhibit that vibration to some degree. To glue two pieces of plastic to a top? Well. I do know that some makers choose to use very thin material for pickguards for that reason.

Richard Hoover at 4:55.


Bruce Van Wart at 7:25.


And Dana Bourgeois achieving his "tuning" via brace sanding. In his case it sounds as if there is indeed a particular tone he tries to achieve by "voicing".


So again, when builders go to this minute detail in an attempt to achieve a tone, voicing, vibration, whatever you wish to call it, what happens when you somewhat restrict that movement they've worked so hard to get with a plastic pickguard? I would agree the change might well be miniscule, but there has to be at least some effect.

But then, it's the same people that build these things that install pickguards isn't it.

West

 

[richt54]

Didn’t matter too much to some people.

 

[GGJaguar]

Everly Bros - quintessential double pickguards

 

[Norrissey]

Let's not forget Bonnie Raitt's famous F50 : )

 

[adorshki]

I don't think it much matters what I think personally about the looks of double pickguards. My question is not one of aesthetics, but of performance. I'm not saying two pickguards dampen top vibration. And obviously, if two guards do dampen vibration, then I'd think one certainly would to an extent. Anyway, the builders go to all the trouble to "tune" a top, some going to great lengths to do so, so I've always wondered about the wisdom of 2 pickguards, unless of course the sonic difference between having no pickguard, one or two is negligible? I would THINK pickguards do indeed effect vibration to at least some extent.

Or how about a leather top?



To listen to luthiers discuss just how thin their tops are cut, then to hear them talk about hand planing to achieve a desired response. Then to take plastic and glue it to the top covering the wood? It just seems like it would dampen it to me. But obviously, I'm no luthier.

West

Re 'guards specifically they're located on a part of the top that's known to be acoustically "dead", or at least extremely wimpy. By far the greatest amount of energy/top vibration is generated in the lower top bout below the bridge. Bridge mass has far more effect on tone than a properly placed and gauged pickguard.

Now, a full leather jacket? Yeah, that'll damp off vibrations like a wet sponge on a speaker. The real issue here is that leather can't resonate for s--t unless it's stretched tight on a drum. Pickguards, being a "hard "material, can at least resonate.

That leather jacket was always a head-scratcher for me, since I've seen it actually being used in performance. I can only guess that the mic'ing was sufficient for the purpose, and perhaps it was even desirable to muffle the brightness of tone a bit, at the time? All Elvis really did 90% of the time was add some "bulk" to the rhythm section