New to Guild - Qs re 12-strings

[Rayk]

Hey Ray, yep, one and the same. I'm finally taking yours and others' advice and looking seriously into a Guild 12. How do you like that new piece, using the Tak 12?

Ah ... You hit the spot with that tune well done Cougar now get over to TTM and get in on our challenges

Guild 12's are very tasty guitars hope to see you get one soon maybe some one here can set you up .

 

[Cougar]

Ah ... You hit the spot with that tune...

Thanks Ray. I guess I'm still in research mode, and occasionally getting confused, like with this F-412 BLD (not sure what the BLD stands for) that says its figured arched maple back is laminate. Apparently these still produce that big cannon-istic tone, but I'm just kind of biased toward solid woods....

There sure aren't many sunburst F-512s or JF-55s around that are priced within reason. I see that cherryburst JF-65 on reverb that's very tempting - I'm not married to rosewood - but... I'd kind of prefer a Hartford, and a few other features aren't quite right. I expect I may have to wait a while for the one I'm looking for to become available someplace....

 

[txbumper57]

Thanks Ray. I guess I'm still in research mode, and occasionally getting confused, like with this F-412 BLD (not sure what the BLD stands for) that says its figured arched maple back is laminate. Apparently these still produce that big cannon-istic tone, but I'm just kind of biased toward solid woods....

There sure aren't many sunburst F-512s or JF-55s around that are priced within reason. I see that cherryburst JF-65 on reverb that's very tempting - I'm not married to rosewood - but... I'd kind of prefer a Hartford, and a few other features aren't quite right. I expect I may have to wait a while for the one I'm looking for to become available someplace....

Hey Cougar, The "BLD" designation stands for Blonde and has to do with the finish color of the guitar. Just a little tidbit on the F412 and JF65-12 "Laminate" back. A common assumption is to see the word "Laminate" and immediately think of the Cheaper Laminate top guitars. That is far from the case with a Guild. The "Laminated Arched Maple Back" is actually made from some of the highest quality Maple there is with no "Filler" wood in between. This is done to add some strength to the Arched back as they have no internal Back bracing like Flatback Guitars. The lack of Bracing and the Arched shape of the High Quality Maple allows the guitar to have a very Focused and Deep tone with wonderful note clarity. Guild has been using this "Arched" back design since all the way back in the 50's on some Guitars and is one of their defining features. All of the American made Guilds with an Arched Laminate Back also have solid side woods as well as solid tops. The F412 and JF65 -12 models have a very Deep tone to them that can almost be described as a Booming Cannon at times. The F512 and JF55-12 models with solid Flat Rosewood backs have a more balanced tone with lots of overtones when compared to the F412/JF65-12. They both have their own unique characteristics to them but the F512 is more even across the tone spectrum and doesn't have as much bottom end punch as the Arched maple back allows the F412/JF65-12 models to have. You can search Youtube for some F412 videos to compare the tone with the F512. A lot of folks Prefer the F412/JF65-12 over the F512 for recording because of it's unique sound. Stevie Ray Vaughn also used a F412/JF65-12 for his MTV Unplugged session. While I prefer the F512/F612 tone myself, I wouldn't overlook the power and clarity of the F412/JF65-12's at all. They are some amazing guitars in their own right.

TX

 

[geoguy]

A gentle correction, txbumper57 . . . I believe that the middle layer of Guild's laminated archback guitars was usually a different, softer wood. Poplar, for example.

It might have conformed more-readily to the desired shape in the archback press machine. In any case, the arched back makes for wonderful projection.

Cougar, as txbumper57 said above, don't mistake a laminated arched back Guild for a cheaply built instrument. They can produce a glorious tone. :encouragement:

 

[txbumper57]

Sorry Geoguy, When I said that there wasn't any Filler Wood I meant like most of the cheaper laminate guitars that have almost the equivalent of Particle board in between 2 very thin Veneers. I wouldn't consider Poplar to be a "Filler" Wood as it is actually a piece of Poplar wood and not sawdust and shavings pressed together. I should have made my statement more Clearly. Thanks for the Clarification!:single_eye:

 

[Neal]

Incidentally, Guild's pressed laminate archbacks historically have been created on a single 30-ton Wabash press. The press has been moved from Westerly, RI, to Corona, CA, to Tacoma, WA, then to New Hartford, Ct and now sits in Oxnard, CA, ready for the next chapter of the F-50/F-412 story. It also created the arched backs for a bunch of other Guilds, including the D-25 and G-37/D-30.

Some of the best musicians in the world have played arch-backed Guilds. If you play one, you will understand why.

Neal

 

[12 string]

The mighty F-112, truly a tempest in a teacup, also came with an arched back near the end of its run.

 

[adorshki]

All of the American made Guilds with an Arched Laminate Back also have solid side woods as well as solid tops.

W-e-e--e-ll, there were a couple of exceptions (as usual for Guild, LOL!), the DCE-1 And DCE-5 had laminate sides, most likely to help retard feedback when amplified, but those are dreads and the only ones I'm aware of.
For sure all American-built steel flat-tops including 12'ers got solid tops though, never heard of anything else.
Welcome aboard Cougar and be assured that laminated backs are a very good thing with Guild.
Keep in mind the back's primary role is reflection not resonation so the sound difference between solid or laminate is going to have more to do with the shape of the back (flat vs arched) than the actual material itself.
That Stevie Ray Vaughan chose a JF65-12 arched maple back, when he could undoubtedly afford anything he wanted, says it all.

 

[Westerly Wood]

The mighty F-112, truly a tempest in a teacup, also came with an arched back near the end of its run.

"tempest in a teacup" Awesome!

 

[chazmo]

W-e-e--e-ll, there were a couple of exceptions (as usual for Guild, LOL!), the DCE-1 And DCE-5 had laminate sides, most likely to help retard feedback when amplified, but those are dreads and the only ones I'm aware of.
For sure all American-built steel flat-tops including 12'ers got solid tops though, never heard of anything else.
Welcome aboard Cougar and be assured that laminated backs are a very good thing with Guild.
Keep in mind the back's primary role is reflection not resonation so the sound difference between solid or laminate is going to have more to do with the shape of the back (flat vs arched) than the actual material itself.
That Stevie Ray Vaughan chose a JF65-12 arched maple back, when he could undoubtedly afford anything he wanted, says it all.

The 1967 F-50 Rosewood had arched, laminate back and laminate sides.

 

[Cougar]

Sounds like what you are looking for fits the exact descriiption of Guild's flagship 12-stringer, the F-512 (AKA JF-55-12) which is arguably the finest 12-string guitar ever made, period.

Or the F-412. As it happens, yes, that seems to be the case. :^) With the near-impossible-to-get burst finish. And I do want a Jumbo, not a 112 or 312 or a dred. I'll pass on Chinese made in this case, though I have several Chinese made Epiphone Masterbilts that are quite exceptional.

But if money is no object, and you are a fan of rosewood, it is a no brainer. F-512.

Well, heh, that is a bit of a problem. The Guild I'm looking for apparently costs as much as my Yamaha Motif XS7 synth did new! (keys being my main instrument, in fact). But after another sale of one of my 6-strings that I haven't been playing, I could be in range...

 

[Cougar]

The "Laminated Arched Maple Back" is .... done to add some strength to the Arched back as they have no internal Back bracing like Flatback Guitars. The lack of Bracing and the Arched shape of the High Quality Maple allows the guitar to have a very Focused and Deep tone with wonderful note clarity....

Ah, makes sense. My natural bias against acoustic laminates is duly negated in this case then. :listening_headphone

 

[Cougar]

Keep in mind the back's primary role is reflection not resonation so the sound difference between solid or laminate is going to have more to do with the shape of the back (flat vs arched) than the actual material itself.

Right - good addition.

That Stevie Ray Vaughan chose a JF65-12 arched maple back, when he could undoubtedly afford anything he wanted, says it all.

I'm hearin' it. :^)

 

[Cougar]

Just a little tidbit on the F412 and JF65-12 "Laminate" back....

They only use maple lam for the arched backs?

 

[adorshki]

They only use maple lam for the arched backs?

I think maple was most common for jumbo-body 12-ers, and F212's (little bit smaller than 412's) had arched mahogany backs for a while "If I recall correctly", but I might be confusing it with the F112 12String mentioned, and rosewood in only a couple or 3 models, but not a 12-er that I can recall.
Must be something about rosewood that makes it less suitable for archbacks, not sure if it's because it already tends to produce a lot of overtones and sustain which might result in overkill in an arched back(which tend to enhance both of those elements) , or it's just pretty expensive to find pieces large enough to aminate. Maybe both.
There were a very few laminated rosewood archback F50's made in late '60's, but even those were bookmatched halves "if I recall correctly". CHAZ? (He had one which was the source of his earlier comment about laminated sides) The other was the DCE-1, a dreadnought cutaway acoustic electric from the '90's., not sure why they used arched rosewood back there, but there must have been some sonic reason for it.
Mahogany was used for the iconic D25 archback dreadnought which had a 12-string counterpart.

 

[wileypickett]

The Guild I'm looking for apparently costs as much as my Yamaha Motif XS7 synth did new! (keys being my main instrument, in fact). But after another sale of one of my 6-strings that I haven't been playing, I could be in range...

Keep in mind the Westerly JF30-12 12-string too, which is more-or-less the budget version of the F412. Jumbo body, maple laminated arched back, just none of the bling of the F412. Considerably less expensive.

I have both models, as well as an F512. They're all great 12-strings.

 

[adorshki]

I'm hearin' it. :^)

Just to kind of expand on what an archback does, consider that Ralph Towner and David Gilmour favor F512 rosewood flatbacks, and those tend to have a more "crystalline" sound to my ears.
Sure at least part of that's technique but one would suspect they go for the tool which makes it easiest to get their preferred timbres.
Stevie Ray was always looking for a "thicker" sound and probably wanted beefier-sounding chords for rockin' acoustic blues, so the archback gives exactly what he wanted, from the enhanced sustain.
Make sense?

 

[chazmo]

I think maple was most common for jumbo-body 12-ers, and F212's (little bit smaller than 412's) had arched mahogany backs for a while "If I recall correctly", but I might be confusing it with the F112 12String mentioned, and rosewood in only a couple or 3 models, but not a 12-er that I can recall.
Must be something about rosewood that makes it less suitable for archbacks, not sure if it's because it already tends to produce a lot of overtones and sustain which might result in overkill in an arched back(which tend to enhance both of those elements) , or it's just pretty expensive to find pieces large enough to aminate. Maybe both.
There were a very few laminated rosewood archback F50's made in late '60's, but even those were bookmatched halves "if I recall correctly". CHAZ? (He had one which was the source of his earlier comment about laminated sides) The other was the DCE-1, a dreadnought cutaway acoustic electric from the '90's., not sure why they used arched rosewood back there, but there must have been some sonic reason for it.
Mahogany was used for the iconic D25 archback dreadnought which had a 12-string counterpart.

Yup, the laminated, arched rosewood on my '67 F-50 Rosewood and it's 12-string twin (the F-412 SPEC) was bookmatched. Remember, though, that was cut from a Brazilian log.

Yeah, the arched mahogany was probably most prevalent in the dread shapes.

 

[adorshki]

Yup, the laminated, arched rosewood on my '67 F-50 Rosewood and it's 12-string twin (the F-412 SPEC) was bookmatched. Remember, though, that was cut from a Brazilian log.

Right, but I should have been clearer in trying to explain that the vast majority of Guild laminated backs are whole piece sandwiches rather than matched halves like a flatback, but with rosewood it may have been hard or prohibitively expensive to get whole sheets of appropriate size.
Had forgotten all about that F412 special as being a rosewood archwood back jumbo 12-er, though.
How do you guys keep track of all this stuff?
:biggrin-new:

 

[tjmangum]

All this talk of 12 strings and no mention of model D25-12, G3-12 (dreadnaughts) or JF30-12 (jumbo). The D25-12 and JF30-12 are both very affordable and great guitars and the G3-12 is no slouch either.
If you are looking for a 12 string, Guild is the place!
T