Seeking Wisdom On Choosing an Older Guild 12-String

Oh and another thing, it is not uncommon for people to tune their 12 strings differently. "Drop -D " is very common in guitar reviews, which I personally think the should state before starting. With 12 string is not uncommon to tune all the strings down 1/2 step or even 1 full step. This makes the guitar have a deeper tone. Here is an official Guild demo that had the guitar in drop-d, I think. It could be more.

Here is the 512 in stock tuning.

Thank You, JohnW63. Makes sense and I had not considered that. I appreciate the suggestion and will do so. Would you say that the reputation is Maple=brighter sound, Mahogany=deeper and Rosewood =a cross of the two? I know that is a broad brush to paint with, but does that make sense in general terms? There is a maple near me I could drive to and look at, but had not considered it and now wonder if maybe I should. Would learn a little, at least. Is Maple the traditional Guild sound in a broad sense or a unique, niche sound? Thank You, again.

These are the generalities. Each guitar can have it's own sound that may break these ideas simply be the exact sample of wood.

Mahogany is said to have a good clear not sound that tends to drop off more quickly than rosewood. If your singing with the guitar this may be what you want. It gets out of the way of your voice. Maple tends to have a fast " attack" ,meaning it hits it's loudest point quickly. This is great for fast picking. It then drops off and , like mahogany, it gets out of the way. With a 12 string this might have a more " jangly " sound that many associate with a 12 string. Rosewood tends to ring out longer and some people say it has a sort of " reverb " to it. This is good for struming where the individual notes all blend together. However, as you've heard in the first video, it can add some " largeness " to the sound. It may " fill the room " with it's tone. Now, I have used a lot of terms in quotes because they are all subjective. For me, I think I like the longer resonance of rosewood. I have an F47R with rosewood that I prefered over an F30 that I also tried out. Of course the F47 has a bit deeper body shape so it sounded deeper anyway.

Still there are always exceptions. Guitars you hear and you do a double take and say " This is from a Maple guitar? " or " For a rosewood body, this ones seems to kinda' flat. "

Oh, and strings. The right or wrong strings can make a guitar really sound great or really disappointing. I tried a new type of strings on my F47R and it sounded thin and a guy I sent a sound clip to thought it was a parlor guitar. Now I have another type, it's back to sounding like I wanted to sound.

Thank you, again. Another good, understandable description that I appreciate. Following your recommendation, I will be hunting videos that could help me and my somewhat tin ear make some personal druthers of what I should try to find. Strumming is certainly where I'll start. Thank you for taking the time and effort to help me. (On another, totally unrelated note that maybe nobody wants to hear, I see you have a couple of Ovations. I had never seen a lot of guitars, but as a Freshman in college, a Sophomore buddy of mine from Yazoo City, MS, had one, talking about '75-'76. When the country comedian Jerry Clower left MS to go to Nashville, my buddy's Dad was promoted to Jerry's old job at the Mississippi Chemical Corporation. Mr. Clower would take my buddy to Nashville in the Summertime and would take him backstage at the Opry to the dressing rooms to see everybody from Tanya Tucker (who was our age) to Roy Acuff. Anyway my buddy would play and sing to us at school as anyone might after such exposure to a great many elite Country Music elite. I thought his unique Ovation guitar was terrific. Glen Campbell sure made them sound good.) Thanks Again.

If I had the funds, I would get the F312.
Good luck on the search! Look forward to the NGD post with pics.

Welcome aboard.

The early Guild 12ers had very wide necks and flat fingerboards. Love the sound but I find them less playable for my complex fingerstyle. All my Guild 12 strings have the dual truss rod necks with a little bit of radius. Much more playable for me. I suspect the more recent ones without the dual truss rods may be more playable still.

As the proud owner of a G-312 I can tell you that a dreadnaught body and 12 strings are a very good fit.

More love for the F-112 here. Same fret scale but smaller body. Lightning fast response and brilliant sound.

When I want to make some serious noise I have jumbos in mahogany, maple and rosewood. Rosewood is rich with overtones which can lead to feedback problems with a live mic. Maple might be better in that situation or if recording.

Having multiple 12ers to play with frees up a lot of tuning and set up choices. This page might be useful:


' Strang

Westerly Wood and 12 string, thank you both for your input. Westerly Wood, what is NGD? Is that like 'New GuilD'? Still learning the guitar acronyms. { I had to look up EIR, I didn't understand the 'E'. } I appreciate the neck and fingerboard description. It all helps.Thanks, all you folks are great !

BTW, most jumbo "maple" 12-strings (at least the F412 and JF30-12) have braceless (slightly) arched backs. And the backs are therefore laminate, but in the case of Guild braceless archbacks, that is not a drawback but a feature. The arch focuses the sound or something -- as they say, they are cannons.

Matthro said:

Westerly Wood and 12 string, thank you both for your input. Westerly Wood, what is NGD? Is that like 'New GuilD'? Still learning the guitar acronyms. { I had to look up EIR, I didn't understand the 'E'. } I appreciate the neck and fingerboard description. It all helps.Thanks, all you folks are great !

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New Guitar Day. There's a forum glossary here.

JohnW63 said:

Oh, and strings.

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Right now I'd recommend D'addario EJ38, having tried a lot of others, great tone and longevity. Buy from a reputable source, there's fake strings out there.

New Guitar Day ! I am looking forward to that ! Thank you Cougar, Guilderland21 and Guildedagain for the New Guitar Day, Arch Back info and string recommendation. Appreciating it all.

Welcome to LTG! You are a wise one, both for deciding to get a Guild 12, and to get advice from LTG first .

Any model from any factory will probably fit the bill, so much so, it will be tough to come to a consensus. For the buyer, you have to know if you prefer bling, or no bling, a jumbo, or a dreadnaught? How old are you thinking? Real old like vintage territory, or within say the last 25 years? Basically, the jumbo is the godfather of all Guild 12s, and I’d say if you want a quintessential Guild 12, you kinda have to start there. The good thing is since you do want to have it for years, and pass it down, as it has been mentioned, when you take care of them, they will last years.

Once you do have your ideal one identified, we are excited to help you find it. In fact, I just got a perfect one for me recently, and it’s already 20 years old, but it’s stellar! It was well taken care of and it shouldn’t need work for years. Count another vote for the JF30-12! Mine is just like Cougar’s but with a natural top. (That burst of his is killer though, call me jelly!)I too liked the archback maple but prefer the plain rosette, and neck without the abalone/MOP fret markers, but I also love the ebony fretboard and bridge, and of course the Chesterfield. Again lots to consider but either way you go, you really can’t go wrong. Seeing as you want to hand it down, maybe ask your son what he’d prefer . Good luck in the hunt, and when you narrow it down, let us know how you make out.

Matthro said:

Thanks very much. That is a beautiful Dreadnaught guitar. I appreciate your descriptions, preferences, thoughts and why they are what they are. I am appreciating yours and everyone else's input and looking forward to anything folks are willing to offer. By the way, what years were the F-112 and F-212 you pictured earlier produced?

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Hi Matthro, welcome aboard! I waited for a while to see if this would be answered, I think you meant "from when to when?"
A brief history from here :

"The first Guild 12's were the F212 (16" lower bout) and F312 ca late '64-'65. Those early models frequently featured extra-wide (nearly 2") nut widths and flat radius boards. Ralf Towner was a fan of that variant.

Next up in '68 was F412 based on the F50 (arched maple backs 17" lower bout). The F412 begat the very earliest F512's as "F412 Specials", which, as far as I can tell, were built "just to try it". IIRC early F412's/512's were special order only, and that being the case, easily tailored to a customer's special requests (within taste and reason.)"

What I left out there (due to tunnel-vision regarding "custom" 12's) was that the F-112, based on the F30 body specs, was introduced in '66 according to the Guild Guitar Book, our forum "bible" for Guild History from '52-'77. It was still in production in '77, but don't recall when it was discontinued, think by early '80's at least.

The F212/312 were based on the F47 body specs. The F312 was discontinued in '74 but don't recall when F212 was discontinued.
Personal opinion, the 16" lower bout F-body is the sweet spot for Guild 12-ers. Perfect balance of sound output and playing comfort.
Guildedagain's observations on his F112 get my curiosity up, though. The 112 was nominally 15" wide lower bout.

For reasons unfathomable to me Guild abandoned the 16" lower bout F-body platform after relocating to Oxnard in 2105. (I'm gonna leave that typo in as a sly reference to Guild's multiple relocations over the last 25 years. but meant "2015" ) To be fair 16" lower bout 12's were gone by '87, long before close of Westerly in '01.

Possibly not-so-coincidentally, this occurred under George Gruhn's part-ownership/management of the company. Gruhn introduced a new mode prefix for the 17" lower bout F-bodies, the "JF" series. This led to the JF65-12 (formerly F412), the JF55-12 (formerly F512), and the JF30-12, a "workingman's" F412, and with a string (strong ) following here.

I suspect Gruhn had plans for a 16" lower bout F-body 12, as he came to Guild to update the basic 16" F body and dreadnought platforms in '84. The 16"lower bout 6-string F body remained in the line continuously from inception ('54) until the Day of the Cordoba. (Oxnard).

So suspect Gruhn simply updated the 17"-ers first and departed before fully implementing the plan.

The F412 and 512 were 17" lower bout F-body and have been in the line under one name or another virtually continuously since introduction, with notable spec changes to the necks in Tacoma in '07, from Guild's classic and one-of-a-kind dual truss rod design to a single truss, reinforced with carbon fiber flanking rods. Allows a slightly thinner and lighter neck.

Matthro said:

Also, do you notice that some worthwhile 12 strings show up for sale on the 'Let's Talk Guild' site, if I will just have patience?

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Absolutely.

Boneman, I appreciate the photos of your beautiful guitar and your advice and things to consider. All taken and appreciated. As I have browsed the internet and looked as far back as '66-'68, (F-212 and F-212XL) in the usual site(s), but not many of those in that year range. What I would like ultimately is a 'classy' older Guild 12 string and I am learning from you good folks is that 'classy' can mean anything from an F-112 to the F-512 and anywhere in between and it doesn't have to be 60 years old. Takes the pressure off of wondering if there are models to avoid, as there seem not to be, just personal preference. And I did wonder about finding a guitar via this site, as folks here selling one are likely open, honest and very doting owners of their well-kept guitars, Maybe I will have the opportunity to ask. Thank you again.

Boneman said:

Welcome to LTG! You are a wise one, both for deciding to get a Guild 12, and to get advice from LTG first .

Any model from any factory will probably fit the bill, so much so, it will be tough to come to a consensus. For the buyer, you have to know if you prefer bling, or no bling, a jumbo, or a dreadnaught? How old are you thinking? Real old like vintage territory, or within say the last 25 years? Basically, the jumbo is the godfather of all Guild 12s, and I’d say if you want a quintessential Guild 12, you kinda have to start there. The good thing is since you do want to have it for years, and pass it down, as it has been mentioned, when you take care of them, they will last years.

Once you do have your ideal one identified, we are excited to help you find it. In fact, I just got a perfect one for me recently, and it’s already 20 years old, but it’s stellar! It was well taken care of and it shouldn’t need work for years. Count another vote for the JF30-12! Mine is just like Cougar’s but with a natural top. (That burst of his is killer though, call me jelly!)I too liked the archback maple but prefer the plain rosette, and neck without the abalone/MOP fret markers, but I also love the ebony fretboard and bridge, and of course the Chesterfield. Again lots to consider but either way you go, you really can’t go wrong. Seeing as you want to hand it down, maybe ask your son what he’d prefer . Good luck in the hunt, and when you narrow it down, let us know how you make out.

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That top is stellar, Boneman! The silking is maggers (magnificent), typical of every JF30/30-12 I've seen, and they were only ever spec'd as AA tops!

@Matthro: forgot to mention top wood quality is everything (well, along with bracing) and Guild's was some of the best. (On both counts)
It's been said what Guild called AA in the day others would call AAA, and we even see their AAA tops called out as AAAA and AAAAA by internet sellers, but I don't believe Guild ever used those terms. Only a couple of times (that I recall) have they called out "selected" to denote an even higher level of grading before use, only on very high-end models. (412's/512's, and similar rule applied to the dreadnought 12's, although the D4-12/25-12 got "standard" tops )

O yeah, you could even get a 17" lower bout 'hog body: F212XL, and the early 90's JF4-12 (very low production).

Thank you, Mr. adorshki ! I have read your message twice now and will again a few times to try to take it all in. Thank you for this brief encyclopedia of information. I take it that the 16" is somewhat limited to the F-212 ??? Also, I did not understand the relationship the 'JF' models had to others as well as I do after reading your description. I am very glad I didn't just leap on a guitar via the internet before joining here and learning from all you good folks. Thank you adorshki and the whole crew.

Thanks again. Grading Tops...more new territory for me ! How do you like, or describe, the maple sound of the JF30-12?

Matthro said:

Thank you, Mr. adorshki ! I have read your message twice now and will again a few times to try to take it all in. Thank you for this brief encyclopedia of information. I take it that the 16" is somewhat limited to the F-212 ???

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"Doh", headslap moment, forgot to spell out the F212 was a 'hog body, the 312 was rosewood, and there was actually an F4512ce from '84'-'86. Then don't think they made a 16" F-body 12 of any ilk until the DD12MC in New Hartford, ca 2013. (Doyle Dykes model 12string Maple Cutaway). IIRC there were at least 6 of those.

Matthro said:

Also, I did not understand the relationship the 'JF' models had to others as well as I do after reading your description. I am very glad I didn't just leap on a guitar via the internet before joining here and learning from all you good folks. Thank you adorshki and the whole crew.
How do you like, or describe, the maple sound of the JF30-12?

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You're welcome! I prefer to cite examples of a model's well-known recordings in this case: Moody Blues' "Question"


Of course it's the injun not the arrow, as Steve Ray Vaughan demonstrates on an F412 (might be a JF65-12, I forget, but all are 17" F-body maple archback 12's)

Guildedagain said:

Someone will come along who knows all the body size difference between these guitars,

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Finally ;[]

adorshki said:

Hi Matthro, welcome aboard! I waited for a while to see if this would be answered, I think you meant "from when to when?"
A brief history from here :

"The first Guild 12's were the F212 (16" lower bout) and F312 ca late '64-'65. Those early models frequently featured extra-wide (nearly 2") nut widths and flat radius boards. Ralf Towner was a fan of that variant.

Next up in '68 was F412 based on the F50 (arched maple backs 17" lower bout). The F412 begat the very earliest F512's as "F412 Specials", which, as far as I can tell, were built "just to try it". IIRC early F412's/512's were special order only, and that being the case, easily tailored to a customer's special requests (within taste and reason.)"

What I left out there (due to tunnel-vision regarding "custom" 12's) was that the F-112, based on the F30 body specs, was introduced in '66 according to the Guild Guitar Book, our forum "bible" for Guild History from '53-'77. It was still in production in '77, but don't recall when it was discontinued, think by early '80's at least.

The F212/312 were based on the F47 body specs. The F312 was discontinued in '74 and but don't recall when it was discontinued.
Personal opinion, the 16" lower bout F-body is the sweet spot for Guild 12-ers. Perfect balance of sound output and playing comfort.
Guildedagain's observations on his F112 get my curiosity up, though. The 112 was nominally 15" wide lower bout.

For reasons unfathomable to me Guild abandoned the 16" lower bout F-body platform after relocating to Oxnard in 2105. (I'm gonna leave that typo in as a sly reference to Guild's multiple relocations over the last 25 years. but meant "2015" ) To be fair 16" lower bout 12's were gone by '87, long before close of Westerly in '01.

Possibly not-so-coincidentally, this occurred under George Gruhn's part-owner/management of the company. Gruhn introduced a new mode prefix for the 17" lower bout F-bodies, the "JF" series. This led to the JF65-12 (formerly F412), the JF55-12 (formerly F512), and the JF30-12, a "workingman's" F412, and with a string (strong ) following here.

I suspect Gruhn had plans for a 16" lower bout F-body 12, as he came to Guild to update the basic 16" F body and dreadnought platforms in '84. The 16"lower bout 6-string F body remained in the line continuously from inception ('54) until the Day of the Cordoba. (Oxnard).

So suspect Gruhn simply updated the 17"-ers first.

The F412 and 512 were 17" lower bout F-body and have been in the line under one name or another virtually continuously since introduction, with notable spec changes to the necks in Tacoma in '07, from Guild's classic and one-of-a-kind dual truss rod design to a single truss, reinforced with carbon fiber flanking rods. Allows a slightly thinner and lighter neck.



Absolutely.

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It is a lot to take in at once.

Matthro said:

Thank you, Mr. adorshki ! I have read your message twice now and will again a few times to try to take it all in. Thank you for this brief encyclopedia of information. I take it that the 16" is somewhat limited to the F-212 ??? Also, I did not understand the relationship the 'JF' models had to others as well as I do after reading your description. I am very glad I didn't just leap on a guitar via the internet before joining here and learning from all you good folks. Thank you adorshki and the whole crew.

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adi rolls like that, like the Encyclopedia Britannica of Guild models, woods, size, shape, I imagine this what happens when you have