Ethical Question

[chazmo]

That one looked like an Ovation/Applause, and it didn't look like it suffered much for the ordeal.

It's from the Ovation Fan Club get-together in New Hartford. They were there at Ski Sundown for years before us.

 

[Canard]

 

[geoguy]

Ah. I had assumed it was a flat-top guitar with some free string length behind the saddle. Neoprene grommets won't help this time!

Presumably you've checked for detached bracing, or other structural defects?

 

[fronobulax]

Ah. I had assumed it was a flat-top guitar with some free string length behind the saddle. Neoprene grommets won't help this time!

Presumably you've checked for detached bracing, or other structural defects?

I have taken it to various reputable luthiers who all say more or less the same thing, "Hang it on the wall. It looks nice. It should have gone through the luthier's bandsaw and then into the wood stove."

If those things weren't checked for then there are reputable luthiers who missed their chance to do so.

 

[richardp69]

Well look, if you hate it so much, I'm sure there are tens of thousands of youngsters who'd love to try and learn how to play guitar. Just find one and give it to him/her. If it plays well but just doesn't have the sound you want well hell, it's gonna be years before the guitar player wanna be knows what sounds good and doesn't sound good anyway. And, who knows, maybe you think it sucks but maybe somebody else doesn't.

 

[Canard]

Presumably you've checked for detached bracing, or other structural defects?

Yup. Inspected inside and out by three excellent luthiers.

 

[Westerly Wood]

The problem is that (if it were perfect, which it looks like it is) it would have an easy resale value of up to the vicinity of $3,000 US. There is a lot of temptation there to sell it on unscrupulously.

Would the luthier take it back or let you trade it for another?

 

[fronobulax]

Well look, if you hate it so much, I'm sure there are tens of thousands of youngsters who'd love to try and learn how to play guitar. Just find one and give it to him/her. If it plays well but just doesn't have the sound you want well hell, it's gonna be years before the guitar player wanna be knows what sounds good and doesn't sound good anyway. And, who knows, maybe you think it sucks but maybe somebody else doesn't.

On the other hand there are tens of thousands of people who started on guitar and gave up because their first instrument was poorly set up or a piece of $hit.

This is an ethics issue - @Canard thinks it is a piece of junk. Can they ethically do anything other than destroy it? If Canard have a higher opinion of it then there would be other choices.

 

[West R Lee]

The problem is that (if it were perfect, which it looks like it is) it would have an easy resale value of up to the vicinity of $3,000 US. There is a lot of temptation there to sell it on unscrupulously.

Mind my asking what it is?

West

 

[Guildedagain]

I have a particular instrument I do worry what would happen after I sold it, seriously actually, enough to not be able to sell it.

It's a very clever Japan Cherry ES335 Dot with open book headstock, an actual vintage Gibson overlay. Very unusual guitar I've had a long time, has a story, it's actually just a monster of a 335 with some really vintage hardware, it could pass for the real thing if someone was unscrupulous and the buyer was naive, and these two conditions unfortunately meet.

When I bought this unusual 335, going price was 10% of what a real 1960 Dot was worth, which was $25k, but now $60k in a way more uncertain world with more desperate people.

I never really thought about this when I bought it, I was just lucky to get it. It's Poly, even better for me, tired of fussy nitro, and all the hardware is stamped MIJ, but that's wouldn't stop someone one or two sellers down the road from swapping things out and trying to pass it off as a $60k guitar, I can't be party to it, and I can't deface it, so I have to keep it. No one but I at this point can prevent a problem.

And like many guitars, I don't need it anymore. I had it on on the Verb highly detailing not a real Gibson, and in the very 1st comms - with a lowball buyer - I wanted assurance that this wouldn't get flipped and end up in the hands of the wrong person, I realized ultimately that I could get none from the person and just pulled the plug on the ad. At the price point of the real deal now, it's just too scary to think what could easily happen.

So, it's not about the "weird noise in the guitar", it's about what's inside your own head and how you live with yourself with what you've done. No one else can judge you.

 

[Canard]

Mind my asking what it is?

West

If I get favourable response from the maker, I will say what it is. Otherwise, I do not wish to damage their reputation. I do not believe this guitar is at all representative of the maker's work. I have played a number of their steel strings and classicals which have been very nice/excellent, which is why I bought this instrument.

 

[Canard]

Well look, if you hate it so much, I'm sure there are tens of thousands of youngsters who'd love to try and learn how to play guitar. Just find one and give it to him/her. If it plays well but just doesn't have the sound you want well hell, it's gonna be years before the guitar player wanna be knows what sounds good and doesn't sound good anyway. And, who knows, maybe you think it sucks but maybe somebody else doesn't.

If there were a serious/talented kid in the neighbourhood whose parents couldn't afford a guitar, I would rather just sell my case honestly and use the money to buy a used Godin-family acoustic that would play nicely and intone properly and sound OK.

The wolf-tone problem with the guitar is that it produces false overtones all over the place. With new bright strings it sounds like some sort of weird synthesizer. Although the intonation for the fundamental tones at the bridge saddle is absolutely perfect, notes, even open strings, do not intone properly because of the false harmonics. It is nothing to do with the setup. It has something to do with strings, but only in that some brands of strings are worse than others and none are good. The problem is, apparently, a structural accident that should have been culled, cut up, and burned in QC checks, but to be fair to the maker, these sort of problems can sometimes develop over time. And as the best (IMHO) of the luthiers I took it to said, these sort of problems are far more common in higher end guitars simply because they are sensitive, resonant and loud. Cheap guitars do not experience them to the same degree because they are comparatively dead.

 

[RBSinTo]

Quite a number of years ago, I got very badly burned with an online purchase of a high-end bigish-name luthier-made acoustic guitar.

It is absolutely beautiful to look at, to hold, and to play, as well, as long as you were deaf. It suffers from the most horrific broad spectrum unfocused wolf-tones. I have taken it to various reputable luthiers who all say more or less the same thing, "Hang it on the wall. It looks nice. It should have gone through the luthier's bandsaw and then into the wood stove."

It has sat in its case for many years. It has made shy of ever buying a guitar again that I cannot see and play.

What do I do with it?

Absolutely dead, grimy, notched strings mask the problem a little or at least provide a more plausible explanation than that the guitar is total garbage. If I were an evil bastard, I could sell it on, but the fact that I haven't already done so suggests that I am not such.

I have thought about just dropping it off at thrift shop. The case at least is valuable.

Canard,
Why not keep it but use it to teach someone else the basics?
You could explain that it has shortcomings, but a rank newbie likely wouldn't notice or care anyway.
As an aside, when we were first learning to play, my close friend had a really cheap Stella acoustic that played and sounded lousy but it was a springboard to playing better, and quality guitars.
Learning on your stinker would at least be an introduction to a wonderfully satisfying skill, and you would still control ownership of it.
RBSinTo

 

[davismanLV]

Also, if you decide to do the donate/give-away thing, depending on where you are there must be schools who teach music. Donating to a school would bring maximum benefit and assure it was played and valued. Just a thought.

 

[adorshki]

Also, if you decide to do the donate/give-away thing, depending on where you are there must be schools who teach music. Donating to a school would bring maximum benefit and assure it was played and valued. Just a thought.

"Johnny that's the 3rd time this week you haven't done your homework. So it's the dunce guitar for you."

 

[mellowgerman]

If the luthier is truly unwilling to work with you on this, even if you offer to send the guitar in for inspection, to prove that it has some kind of clear issue that is not the result of misuse or abuse... that is some awful customer service and completely unacceptable at such a premium purchase price. In that case, I would honestly go public (at least via a youtube demo/review that clearly shows the issue) purely to help prevent any future buyers from getting screwed out of big money. I was once screwed out of about $500 by a reputable, local, mom&pop music store when I was a teen who didn't know any better, but worked very hard to save up that money. They knew very well that they were misrepresenting the instrument, but saw the opportunity to rob a kid of his money. Different situation, but it always makes this take-the-money-and-run kind of stuff a very personal point of frustration for me. For what it's worth, I ended up selling it at quite a loss, because the whole thing haunted me. In any case, if you bought this new, they should 100% make it right, no excuses -- in my opinion, of course.

I definitely wouldn't give it away though or sell it, for the previously mentioned issue that this would set up future buyers for trouble and heartache, should the next seller choose not be honest about the sale.

All that said, have you tried alternate tunings? I had one of my acoustics tuned in "Nashville tuning" for quite a while and found it refreshing and useful to have in the stable... maybe something along those lines would shift the pitches enough to make the overtone issue go away? Lots of specialty string sets out there for different options. Aren't there also classical strings for extreme low tunings? Just another idea!

EDIT: Or just go all out and turn it into a 4-string acoustic mini bass! I did that with an old Kay
jumbo acoustic that would not take a decent set-up, played terribly as a six-string, standard-tuned acoustic, and sounded unbearably squawky, nasal and thin. Now it's my always-ready living-room bass, plays well, and it actually sounds quite good, though it is a bit on the quiet side. Again, shifting the pitches enough may make the overtone issue unnoticeable.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . I've previously heard of "wolf tones" being caused by string vibration behind the bridge saddle. That can be reduced by placing neoprene grommets between adjacent pairs of strings. . . .

Mando players just use little strips of leather or felt.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Another honest and reasonable solution:

Restring it. Pick an opening price and put the guitar up on Craig's for local sale, cash only.

Don't comment on the sound. It's in the ears of the beholder. And some people are truly happy to just have a gorgeous instrument.

Pick a place to meet. (I like public places like Starbuck's or McDonald's.) Meet up. Let the buyer test drive it. Again, don't comment on the sound. If someone buys it, it's gone. If no one does, lower the price and try again.

Sooner or later (if you're lucky, sooner) it will sell.

 

[West R Lee]

I'm by no means a connoisseur (had to look up the spelling) of guitar tone, but I will say this. Classicals are just different.....you've got to keep them moving, at least the couple I've owned have been that way. No sustain really. I've never really cared for the sound in my hands, but other guys can make them sound great. Professional guys that come to mind are Willie Nelson and Zac Brown. I just love guitars that ring forever, but suspect that just like all tools, there's a guitar meant for every job. They're just not my cup of tea.

West

 

[gjmalcyon]

So this thread started me down a rabbit hole - actually I just peeked in and didn't go too far.

Wolf notes are caused by the interactions of the strings with both the resonant frequencies of the guitar body (that is the air in the guitar body) and the resonant frequencies of the guitar top and/or guitar back.

Fixing top resonance can be as simple as figuring out where to add a modest amount of mass to the top in a specific location to change the frequency and mode of the top resonance. I saw Blu-Tack mentioned over and over again as the way to figure out the location of whatever permanent solution you implement.

I saw changing string brands and gauges as well as changing tunings mentioned as solutions.

If it were me, I'd jump down the rabbit hole head first and try to resolve the issue.

Doing so could make you the Wolf Note Knowledge King of LTG.