Please Help This Senile Old Man

[SFIV1967]

Is that more visible from one angle than the other?

I have copied this good explanation from the acouticguitarforum:

"Runout is the angle that the fibres of the wood ("grain") make with the face of the cut lumber. This is seen from the side of the board, not the end. In the figure, below, the "rising grain" shown, if sliced in half, book matched, will result, when the two slices are opened like pages of a book, in one slice having "rising grain" while the other slice will have "falling grain", oriented the opposite direction. The reflection of light from the two orientations of the fibres of the wood result in one side appearing darker than the other. If you reverse the guitar end-to-end, the lighter and darker sides reverse. It has to do with how the light reflects from the surfaces having different orientation of the fibres."



Ralf

 

[wileypickett]

Thanks for posting this Ralf -- a very good explanation for how runout works.

When knowledgable luthiers have to remove a bridge, they do so from different sides of the bridge, depending on the angle of the grain.

To go against the grain with a spatula is to invite tearout. To avoid tearout you'd remove the bridge from the front on one side of the bookmatched top, and from the back on the other.

 

[chazmo]

Wow, lots of hate for runout. I find it really interesting to hear what you guys think. Personally, I don't mind runout at all. I remember seeing a pre-war martin where the top was definitely some sort of angle cut. I think it was Adirondack, but I'm not sure. In any case, the bookmatched top on that looked very unusual, and I think it had runout as well (although not exactly the normal kind of runout). Anyway, it looked weird, but it was worth a gazillion dollars. I'll bet it sounded great.

Oh, and Sandy, I do think your top is bookmatched. Just look at the symmetrical streaking on the lower bout.

 

[Westerly Wood]

Wow, lots of hate for runout. I find it really interesting to hear what you guys think. Personally, I don't mind runout at all. I remember seeing a pre-war martin where the top was definitely some sort of angle cut. I think it was Adirondack, but I'm not sure. In any case, the bookmatched top on that looked very unusual, and I think it had runout as well (although not exactly the normal kind of runout). Anyway, it looked weird, but it was worth a gazillion dollars. I'll bet it sounded great.

Oh, and Sandy, I do think your top is bookmatched. Just look at the symmetrical streaking on the lower bout.

I do not mind Runout either, I just find it interesting that the Claw is considered a bonus, whereas runout not so much.

 

[chazmo]

I'd say that's (mostly) true, Woody. I mean bear claw is certainly an obvious feature of a guitar if you're shopping, and you're either going to want it or not. But, I've never heard of anyone actually seeking out runout.

Having said that, I've seen some bear claw that I don't like and might actually not buy if I were presented with an equivalent guitar without it. Other bear claw, like was used on one of the F-30 GSR models in New Hartford was so cool that I wanted it immediately. Didn't pull the trigger though.

 

[walrus]

I don't mind the look of runout, I just know that over time my OCD would eventually reject it and drive me crazy!

Ralf, excellent post #41 - thanks!

walrus

 

[SFIV1967]

Other bear claw, like was used on one of the F-30 GSR models in New Hartford was so cool that I wanted it immediately.

Oh yes! Both GSR F-30R (2010) and GSR F-47KC (2012) featured a solid bearclaw Sitka spruce top.



Ralf

 

[Guildedagain]

I used to runout for a bear claw with kiddo before school on some mornings, and that donut shop is still there and she takes her kiddo there now, going to kiddergaaden in same school.

 

[fronobulax]

I used to runout for a bear claw with kiddo before school on some mornings, and that donut shop is stil there and she takes her kiddo there now, going to kiddergaaden in same school.

Whereas what I thought was a "bear claw" is actually an "apple fritter". It is rare for me to find a bakery that sells both so I tend to ask for one and be served whatever they have. Pointing at the case eliminates some confusion.

 

[twocorgis]

Oh, and Sandy, I do think your top is bookmatched. Just look at the symmetrical streaking on the lower bout.

Not sure I agree Charlie. If you look at the top again, there's a pretty much continuous line on the treble side from the upper to lower bout, and it's not present on the bass side.

It could still be bookmatched I suppose, and I think @SFIV1967 expounded on that once, but it sure as hell doesn't look bookmatched "in the flesh". I imagine @AcornHouse might have an opinion on this as well.

FWIW, Dana Bourgeois told me once that some of his best sounding tops aren't the prettiest ones, and many times he uses those tops for his black guitars.

 

[F-412Spec]

"I've never had a guitar with the [perceived] problem in decades of wanton guitar acquisition."

This quite a record. I've owned roughly 150 pre-1970 Martins and virtually ALL of them had runout to some degree. Visibility and ability to photograph the color change depended on the lighing and angles, but it was there. Absolutely perfectly quartered and bookmatched spruce is surprising to me.

 

[AcornHouse]

My Orpheum OM could be the poster child for runout.

Ralf insists that this top is bookmatched, but I still don't see it. The guitar sounds so good (best OM I've ever played, even if it is closer to a 0000 size), that i just close my eyes and listen when I play it.

Sandy, I do think it's bookmarked. While the streak on the left is not as long as it is on the right, the rest of the grain seems to match up.
Since dark streaks can be any depth deep, they can easily disappear from one consecutive board to the next, eaten up by the saw kerf. That's what I see in this top. A shallow dark line that is moving non-parallel to the tool's plane.

 

[West R Lee]

Wow, lots of hate for runout. I find it really interesting to hear what you guys think. Personally, I don't mind runout at all. I remember seeing a pre-war martin where the top was definitely some sort of angle cut. I think it was Adirondack, but I'm not sure. In any case, the bookmatched top on that looked very unusual, and I think it had runout as well (although not exactly the normal kind of runout). Anyway, it looked weird, but it was worth a gazillion dollars. I'll bet it sounded great.

Oh, and Sandy, I do think your top is bookmatched. Just look at the symmetrical streaking on the lower bout.

I don't mind it either Charlie.....never have. I've seen and played some fabulous guitar with "runout", and if it effected their tone, it must have enhanced it. My DV72 has runout, as does my D1A.

West

 

[twocorgis]

Sandy, I do think it's bookmarked. While the streak on the left is not as long as it is on the right, the rest of the grain seems to match up.
Since dark streaks can be any depth deep, they can easily disappear from one consecutive board to the next, eaten up by the saw kerf. That's what I see in this top. A shallow dark line that is moving non-parallel to the tool's plane.

I'll have to get a better shot of the top later. Of course you're probably right, but the grain on the top doesn't match up very well when you look at it closely, and the grain width varies wildly. It sure a far cry from the Adirondack top that Wayne Henderson put on the '70 D50, or even the perfectly quatersawn sitka top (with probably the nicest silking I've seen), on the Oxnard D40T.

 

[davismanLV]

I posted this ages ago. Maybe time for a refresher post. When you bookmatch (which is mostly tradition more than anything technical) if the lines run up and down (like in the middle example) everything matches. When you bookmatch grain running at an angle (like in the top example) the lines will run opposite directions which creates grain runout, or runout.

 

[GGJaguar]

Adding on...

 

[Guildedagain]

"I've never had a guitar with the [perceived] problem in decades of wanton guitar acquisition."

This quite a record. I've owned roughly 150 pre-1970 Martins and virtually ALL of them had runout to some degree. Visibility and ability to photograph the color change depended on the lighing and angles, but it was there. Absolutely perfectly quartered and bookmatched spruce is surprising to me.

I guess I could never afford a guitar with runout. Only had 1 Martin, '72 D28 and she did runout on me but her top was perfect. This Martin came from local legend who wanted Gibson's latest "Pre war Jumbo" this is going back near a couple decades, and I seen him later playing the Suthern Jumbo and big mistake, that old Martin way better sounding than the new Gibson but maybe it hadn't opened up yet...

 

[chazmo]

"I've never had a guitar with the [perceived] problem in decades of wanton guitar acquisition."

This quite a record. I've owned roughly 150 pre-1970 Martins and virtually ALL of them had runout to some degree. Visibility and ability to photograph the color change depended on the lighing and angles, but it was there. Absolutely perfectly quartered and bookmatched spruce is surprising to me.

Hey, Brad, which of the old martins are your favorites? Just curious!!

 

[Rich Cohen]

From an aesthetic point of view, I don't like runout.

 

[MartyG]

It happens: